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Silverfoxesclub-digest In this issue:
-Age and Wisdom, the sequel...(6)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Coming from a 31 yr old Daddy-lover, have any of you ever thought that there are some of us out here that look for older men for the sole reason of finding you all extremely attractive? I've been into older men since I was 21 years old, I was never looking for a "father figure", I simply wanted to try sex with an experienced man who might show me a couple of things I didn't know. When I make love to a man, I love kissing him, caressing him, nibbling on his ears, and just lying together in bed really gets me excited. I love to kiss him on the forehead and taste him..My favorite thing to do is French kiss..and kissing his earlobes. And also, I have never found an older guy to be the 'dominant' one. I don't know if I'm cursed (or it's even a curse as I enjoy it too much) but I always wind up being the "top". I think the opposite it true about what one of you says that we're the ones looking for a "dominant" father..the ones I find are the ones looking for a dominant young man. I guess after living your lives you finally want to relinquish power and get pampered and taken care of. I am most happy to do it--so I'm not bitching... We're not all the same and I personally think that it would be impossible to find out how each of us thinks and why we do the things we do. All I know for sure is (1). I love making love to old men, not because I want a father figure, but because I truly and genuinely enjoy doing it and (2). I have never been happier in my life, I've met some great (old) guys, and (3). I go out of my way to make each one of them feel like they're the best thing since sliced bread.
David
Hi All This signature came to be because of a flaming e-mail I once got from a young man, Who after I had very politely tried to explain to him that I was not honestly interested in his persistent advances on e-mail and that I would be glad to just be a friend and have him write occasionally, went whacky. He started to tell me in letter after letter that I wanted him because he had a body to die for, and that he was highly intelligent and very mature, and no one my age should want another old troll when he was offering himself. Of course I found this quite amusing but just stopped writing to the list I belonged for some time and deleted every e-mail he kept sending with more sick diatribe. I make no bones out of the fact that I am NOT attracted to younger men. I make no apologies for that fact either, Regardless of what people wish to declare as "Mature" Wisdom" desireablity" or anything else, It is a very personal concept that can be prejudiced by those around him or by others personal feelings. I have never inferred that others are wrong if they feel a certain way, But, I do declare when I don't accept that feeling for my own personal concept. Fortunately this world is full of personal opinions and since everyone seems to have theirs and think that it is the right one, Things like this will always make an interesting thread on a mail list, But will never be able to be solved because of the inherent differences between all of us. That is what a discussion is all about, Just airing our differences, Not having to agree and yet agreeing to let others disagree. As far as wisdom goes, I find it very difficult to conceive how it can be achieved without the experience of age. As far as Maturity is concerned, It cannot be achieved without the experience of age. Now a child may seem "mature for his age" That is not saying he or she is Mature, It only states that for his or her age they act and think like someone a bit older than what they are. I am not going to get into semantics in all this. Just enjoy finding that something that I have had for a long time and had some people play armchair therapist disclaim, arrive at a discussion. NO ONE, Can State from knowing someone on a list such as this one, that another is or is not, Intelligent, Mature, happy with life, Needing a life, well educated, or well informed. All anyone can do is to read what is printed in each little posting and enjoy or delete and answer or lurk at will. We will not solve the problems of the world, But we may make some new friends. I for one am very thankful to have a list such as this one, Ben has done a marvelous job of building this into a place where one can actually enjoy coming to and belonging. So now as the expression goes,"Elvis has left the building" I too shall bow out and enjoy the rest of my morning coffee and e-mail.
Love you all. absolutely correct in many cases dominant mother, passive father
------------------------------ "alan reid" wrote: ...why anyone is sexually attracted to anyone...we simply like what we like. AMEN - one of the more sensible comments I have seen in a while.
Jim "James Young" wrote: some of us would not know we had a problem, while standing waist deep in water, and having alligators snapping at our ass.
Dear Jim,
George of Boston (Boston Bill) I'm new to the list and want to introduce myself. My name is Jim and I'm a 73YO silver fox from southwestern Ohio. I just had to respond to David's post because I absolutely like to do all of the things he does plus tantalizing the inner ear and navel with the tip of my tongue---and kiss the eyelids---and caress his head whether he has hair or not. And hey---if he wants to be dominated, I can be aggressive---but oh so gentle.
Jim Straight Talk
A conversation with the psychologists behind
this week.s other gay study, which shows .this kind of
heterosexual shift is
difficult and extremely rare.
NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE IN THE FIRST STUDY, Columbia University psychiatrist Dr. Robert Spitzer interviewed 145 gay men and 57 lesbians who had been referred to him by groups doing .conversion therapy.. Sixty-six percent of them said that through the therapy, they had achieved satisfying heterosexual relationships, although some said they continued to have some homosexual fantasies or feelings. Forty-four percent of the 57 lesbians in the study also said they had been successfully converted. Spitzer described his subjects as very religious and highly motivated to change. Spitzer sat on the committee that set the APA policy in 1973. However, a similar study.conducted by Columbia psychologist Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder, a psychologist in private practice in Manhattan.studied 202 participants and found 178 failures. In fact, only six said they had successfully completed a heterosexual shift.; another 18 described themselves as currently asexual or confused about their orientation. For this study, the doctors also wanted participants who had gone through conversion therapy.but this time they looked for them randomly, via the Internet, newspaper ads and groups offering reparative counseling. The interviews were 90 minutes long, twice the length of Spitzer.s. NEWSWEEK.s Pat Wingert talked to Shidlo and Schroeder after their APA presentation. NEWSWEEK: Based on the results of these two studies, is it possible for a gay man or a lesbian to change their sexual orientation through therapy? Schroeder: Of the 202 individuals we interviewed, only six people.or 3 percent.achieved what you and I would think of as a successful shift.They were functioning heterosexuals, they were happy, content, had little difficulty with fleeting homosexual desire.... That tells me that this kind of heterosexual shift is difficult and extremely rare. Shidlo: And I should add, five of those six made their living as conversion counselors and do a lot of speaking on this topic. Some people argue that heterosexuals change all the time. For example, when they.re sent to prison. Shidlo: If someone who started out as a heterosexual is sent to prison, they might change their behavior, but they haven.t changed their orientation. For thousands of years, gay people have changed their behavior in order to adapt and hide.and that.s feasible. If therapists say they can help people become celibate, that.s a very different thing. But changing desire, that.s difficult, and I don.t think there.s evidence that when heterosexuals leave prison, they don.t resume being heterosexuals. Your results seems to be directly at odds with Spitzer.s findings. Why? Shidlo: Spitzer only sought successes.he wasn.t looking for failures. What.s surprising is that only 66 percent [of those in Spitzer.s study] turned out to be true successes. Schroeder: You also have to be really careful about defining what success means. In addition to our six, there were an additional 18 people who deemed themselves successes, but they were continuing to struggle with homosexual desire, or were celibate, or didn.t know how to describe themselves. Some were still in therapy.but considered themselves asuccess. That.s like saying you succeeded at losing weight while on a liquid diet. The real question is, when you stop the diet, will the results last over the long term? We had a number of people who said that at one point, they were hopeful and happy and thought the therapy was a success. But later, they realized it hadn.t worked. We had one person referred to us as a success. But 14 months after he stopped therapy, he did not see himself as a success anymore. Your research seems to indicate that this kind of therapy can be harmful. Talk about that. Schroeder: That.s right. Everyone is focusing on whether there were successes, but what we thought was more important were the overwhelming number of those who experienced failure and reported a broad range of harm. [Some were] provided fraudulent information that gay people are all sick, can.t live happy lives and were victims of child abuse. Some said that their therapists even tried to convince them that they must have been abused.Some therapists blamed the parents.... There were also many people who invested a lot of time.10, 15 years.in this therapy and really worked hard at it, and they expressed an inordinate sense of loss when it didn.t work, and they had to begin to rebuild who they were socially. Shidlo: The other thing was that those who failed weren.t counseled about how to cope with it. They felt stuck with something that they had been indoctrinated to hate and had been told was the key to solving all their problems. Did you find these subjects needed therapy for their therapy? Shidlo: A lot of them were very hurt by it and required therapy to come to terms with their failure, who they were and the impact of their future and self-esteem. Many said they had a hard time forming relationships and suffered a lot of sexual dysfunction.... Another group felt very suspicious of all therapists. They felt deceived and betrayed. And a third group seemed to be psychologically resilient; their view was that the therapy had been a positive thing because it had helped them come to terms with the fact that they couldn.t change, and this was who they truly were, and that it was time to stop fighting with themselves inside. Any surprises in the results? Schroeder: Yes, we asked whether they had withheld any information from their therapists, and it was not uncommon for them to say that they had lied to their therapists to please them. Shidlo: Many said the only way to quit was to pretend that they had succeeded. That explains why some surveys have shown that these therapists have a very high success rate. Schroeder: We also had students at religious universities tell us that they had been mandated into therapy as a requirement of completing their education or continuing to receive financial aid. Some of them said they had to mislead their therapist in order to graduate or get their checks. This was especially true at Mormon institutions. Did the patients indicate whether their therapists had strong moral positions on homosexuality? Or were they neutral on the topic? Shidlo: Empirically, we found the majority of the therapists these consumers saw were very anti-gay and thought homosexuality was really horrible and disgusting. The bible of the psychotherapeutic world.the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM.hasn.t listed homosexuality for decades. So why do therapists still offer conversion help? Shidlo: For one thing, there.s a demand for the service. Secondly, there.s a sizable group of people in our field [psychiatry] whose religious and moral beliefs tell them that a homosexual orientation is sinful or socially bad.and those are the therapists offering these services. We asked our subjects if their therapists had discussed the APA position with them, and the majority said no. The ones who said yes said their therapists spoke about it with contempt and told them it wasn.t based on science but the activism of gays. There are a group of professionals out there who refuse to look at the empirical basis for these changes in the field. Do you expect the APA to reconsider its position opposing conversion therapy as a result of these studies? Shidlo: No.but we should consider doing a lot more studies with alot of different samples. This kind of research is very hard to do, and it.s hard to find a representative sample. We need to do more longitudinal studies that follow people from the beginning to the end of their therapy and for significant periods after that. Do these two studies get us any closer to an answer about whether homosexuality is a choice?
Shidlo: When you hear that something.s a choice, that
means someone can choose it or .unchoose. it.and from
our results, it.s very clear that that is false. We
interviewed 182 people who tried very hard to
change.The stakes were really high for them. Some
really thought that if they didn.t change, they would
literally find themselves in hell. Many were very
religious. And they still failed. After reading this article, the question that I have is, can a gay man really change?
Regards, "Dennis O" wrote: After reading this article, the question that I have is, can a gay man really change? Once the farm boy has seen the bright lights of the city, there is no going back.
George of Boston (Boston Bill)
Giggle from Ben Boxer: Eric wrote: Sigh...now I can NEVER become heterosexual... :>) Smile .... I never was. Nor did I want to be. Wife and children do not a hetroid make.
George of Boston (Boston Bill)
George: I applaud Otto's insight--or is it experience? At least he gave a wonderful back-handed compliment to being fucked.... and tremendous power to a dick and an ass....:>) Sigh...now I can NEVER become heterosexual... :>) Eric
Can gays un-gay? (Thread continued in Digest 241.) End of silverfoxesclub-digest V1 #240
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