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Silverfoxesclub-digest In this issue: -Doing it with married men (27)
------------------------------------------------------------- I met a very nice pharmacist at my drugstore when I asked if they carried Magnums condoms. Now he always flirts with me and stares at my crotch when I come in to get a script filled. Too bad he has a wedding ring on. I draw the line at married men. But he sure am cute and I sure am tempted.
Ciao, Buzter mentioned something in a recent post, that he draws the line at married men, and I'm curious as to why. Married men are the best, they are so eager! And they're only interested in getting off, not in complications. I feel that it's not my job to decide who someone else should have sex with, I leave that to Dr. Laura et al. And if I find that someone else to be cute, why shouldn't it be with me? Unless maybe you don't want to be a home-wrecker? Well, you're not the home-wrecker, he is! If the guy wants it, he'll get it somewhere. And besides, the male human was not designed by evolution to be monogamous, but rather to spread his seed around as far as possible. I've been having the best sex of my 55 years with a married guy for nearly 18 months, with no discernible(sp?) effect either on his marriage ( a good one, by the way), or my relationship with my boyfriend, which has lasted 31 years. So why draw the line?
Killer curious. You say that your married lover has a good marriage and that there is no discernable effect on either his marriage, or your 31 year old relationship. My question is, do either your partner or his wife know about the sexual relationship the two of you have? If they do and have no objections, then I say go for it, if it makes all of you happy and there is no jealousy on anyone's part. In fact, the best relationships I have ever had were open ones. After all, sex isn't love. It just enhances an already loving relationship. And I don't think that having sex with another man detracts from the love I have for my partner. But the difference is, that we have an agreement that allows us to be sexual with others, with no jealousy. Does your married friend? Do you? I have had casual sex and sexual relationships with married men and they have led to nothing but disaster or were very unfulfilling. I had a long distance relationship with a married man for 6 years. The minute I mentioned moving to the same town that he lived in, the relationship went south. It's easier to cheat when the object of your affection lives 180 miles away and it's only an occasional thing. Me living that close was way too close to home for him, I guess, and he was too closeted. I think that is what turns me off about married men now. If they are married, they are very closeted. The closet is for lies and cheating. I realize that a lot of older gents grew up in a different era when being gay could have dire and serious consequences. And if they are still married, disaster still can happen if they get caught. I just don't want to be involved with a man who cheats and lies on a woman they took vows of fidelity with, just for the sake of getting their rocks off. And, if they are cheating on their wives, someday they will going to get caught and I wouldn't want to be in the middle of that mess. A stiff dick may have no conscience, but I would prefer it if the man it is attached to has one. And, to top it off, these married, "straight" men you are blowing or fucking on Saturday afternoon are often the same ones who are denigrating the "gay lifestyle" in church on Sunday (and the rest of the week). They are also probably not just cheating on the little woman with you; they are also cheating on you with god knows how many other men and/or women. Sounds too complicated and messy to me. If some "straight" man wants to cheat on his wife he will find a way to do it. It isn't going to be with me. You say that married men are so eager and that there are no complications. Well, there are complications if you fall in love with that man, especially if there is a spouse and children involved. Just like throwing a pebble into still water, there is a ripple effect that goes beyond sexual gratification. Married men??? No thanks! There are too many hot "admitted homosexuals" out there looking for a good time to be bothered with the complications that go along with boffing married guys.
Ciao
Hi All But since when is it "The "job" of anyone out side of the wife,and even then the term job is a bit foolish to me, as it should be out of love and affection for the wife to supply sex to "her", married man,??" And, Who the hell played God and says that the male human was not designed to be monagamous but a slut? Or as the writer put,"to spread his seed as far as possible"??? This is an affront to those who believe that regardless of the reputation of gay people in the hetro world and not even getting into religion, there are many,many gay men and women in this world who strongly believe in the sanctity of a monagamous union as symbolic of their love and devotion to their partner, very much like the belief of most hetro couples. I am not saying all hetro couples are pure,heavens no.. but then two wrongs dont make it right either.. I hope this wont get too many of those that feel sex is an open game to go out and get all you want while your lover stays home, and a relationship is seperate from their outside sexcapades,too upset,It is not meant to be critical of anyone... Now, It is true, That Love and Sex are not necessarily mutually Exclusive, But, within a committed union of two people in love, It is Not, at least to me and many,many others The right to have another or frequent sexcapades on the side just to get your rocks off. This whole concept is why I am against the concept of legalizing Gay Marriage, Because the sincere monagamous couples would suffer while the "Other couples " put down the whole concept of a married union by sharing beds with the multitudes to live up to the name of their personal ideal that the male animal is supposed to be a seeder for the world.. This is not meant to flame anyones way or choice of life, It is a statement pure and simple for the way I was raised to think and accept any permanent relationship.. And the way,I lived mine for over 50 yrs prior to his passing. I have received a letter also from a young man on this list for whom I was trying to be helpful about a request of his.. I did it in a friendly and sincere way and the response I got ended with him putting me down for the "signature" on my e-mail.. Again,It is MY Personal opinion in the signature, and by putting it down,only proved my point. I will continue to believe as I do which is of no concern to anyone but me,Thank you very much. I thank Ben for having this forum so that personal feelings can be discussed in a civil way without the flames of past times.. I do not now,Nor have I ever intentionally been derogatory to anyone on this list, which I respect totally, Its just to bad,some folks are so thin skinned at my feelings and wishes.. I do love you all,in my own old and cranky way, :-))
Huggz..the Sexy Grey
Senior
I avoid getting involved with married guys. Maybe it's because I was
married for more than 25 years and didn't screw around until after I was
divorced. I'm not sure. I don't have any mental hangups about having sex
with anyone who is appealing. Since my divorce I've tried having sex with
married guys and found it very unappealing. I think it is because I know
that I'm an appendage to a life which I will never get to know very well
regardless of how satisfying the sex might be. To me it is wierd to go to a
married guys house and have sex in his bed when his wife is out of town. I
should add that my taste runs to younger men and the married guys were all
60+. That may have something to do with it. Don't know what I'd do if a
buff 20 year old married guy came around. I don't often post but this subject hit a BIG nerve with me! Playing with a married man is one's own choice. I have been on both sides of that argument may times depending upon whether I was playing with a hot married guy at the time or not! I always joked that it was great, no strings, but you would never have a date on a Saturday night! The comment was made that getting it on with a married man might be OK, but what if you fall in love with him? Well, dating a married man is a whole different ballgame. That can be the wildest roller coaster ride of your life if the dating turns serious. Even I, one of the foremost roller coaster enthusiasts, was not prepared for the ride in store when I fell hard for a man that had been married for 30 years. Even though the love was mutual, there were so many difficult times while we tried to have a semi normal dating schedule. Events in his family life were always popping up and of course the plans we had made were secondary to his family. I cannot tell you how many nights I sat home alone waiting for the phone to ring just in case he might be able to make a quick call to say goodnight and how he was sorry that we could not be with me tonight. I was lucky in that he did have a very flexible schedule and we were able to be together more than most in our circumstance, but still, after a day or night together, we both got into our own separate cars and drove to our own separate homes. Me to my empty house, him to his with his wife. My friends all laughed at my persistence and insisted that a "Gay married man will die a Gay married man." But sometimes in your heart there is just something that makes you go on and try to resolve what everyone else thinks futile. To make a long story shorter, the roller coaster ride went on for 9 months, getting really bumpy more than a couple of times. It may not be the best situation for everyone, but I stuck it out for that time with the faith that I knew we would be together. This month, on the 21st of May, we will celebrate 11 years together. Not all married men have the courage it takes to be true to themselves and go through what will always be a costly and usually, messy divorce. I am glad that the man I wake up next to each morning did have that courage. At least if you are going to play the game, know the percentages and pitfalls that await you. And good luck to all of you that choose the same road as I, that you will find a man of the same caliber that I did. It was well worth the ride!
Bob For the record: according to (certain) anthropological research monogamy (as well as polygamy or other forms of polyamory) are basically cultural and are often the results of pragmatic needs: the kind of unions established in different societies are the ones that allow for maximun benefit of the individual and the society economically and socially. Biologically speaking there are different species of primates, mammals, birds and others that establish lifelong pair relationships (with and without overt or covert extrapair sex) as well as sexual unions for reproduction only with as many different partners as one can find as well as a 1 male to several females as part of a family unit. So there is no biological dictum that works for all. I am a married bisexual (whose wife knows) who has had longtime long distance love/sex realtionship with an unmarried male(with whom my wife has developed a telephone friendship)as well as a local married male (whose wife also knows and with whom I am wonderful friends). I think it is very hard to generalize about these things. Some peole have casual sex others have friendship/sex relationships some are open about it while others are not. As long as people play safe and do not jeopardize the health (physical, mental, and emotional) of their partners I don't think we have the right to judge others even if we assume that our way is the best - at least for us.
P.S. from Ben Boxer on the last sentence above:
Amen!
I love married men, love looking at the ring as they pounce me, love to
provide a service for the men who are not getting it at home, and as was said
before me, if not me, they would be getting it anywhere a hot mouth
waits......I enjoy servicing, then sending them home!!!!!
TruthBear wrote: ..Not all married men have the courage it takes to be true to themselves and go through...costly and...messy divorce... I would like to echo these sentiments as I was a gay married man who fell in love with two other men (at different times, of course). In each case I went back to my wife because I lacked the courage to live as I was biologically meant to. I was, therefore, a very unhappy man. I could not be faithful to her, a male lover or myself, and no one can be happy if his life is a lie. Thank God I finally realized it was killing me and left her to live an open, honest life--at the age of 54! One week later I met the man my higher power had intended for me. He came to visit me for a weekend, and we haven't been apart since. That was eleven months ago tomorow. Every day I am amazed at how happy I am, how at peace with myself. We haven't had a first argument yet, I am finally able to be happily monogamous, and every day is a new adventure. My divorce will be final on the 7th. I feel sorry for the two men who pinned their hopes on me when I was married, and in truth I still have feelings for them both--but we all know they never expected me to do what Bob's lover did. Mike, the man of my heart, has told me many times he would not have gotten involved with a married man--he wanted a cook and a slut. I guess I fit the bill. Woohooooooo! So my advice to any of you who are contemplating a relationship with a married man is this: never expect to be first in his life, accept the fact that you will hurt many times, understand that he can not be what you deserve. Lou
Hello There,
Instead, after a long period of a Drama I was "accepted" by his family so we can eat all together from time to time. For the sake of a relation to a person important for me I had to compromise, and that is probably the ultimat experience a gay man can have playing with married men.
Best Regars
Hello Mr. Gray Senior and All
Motto: I have spent 20 years looking for a gentleman to be in a close relation with. Now I am 45 and still wander why it is so difficult. I never wanted a sugar daddy or a "father" A masculine "normal" and "straight like" men is my type. "Nice and wise" that would be the choice. Some of my observations about man on the gay scene can be summarised like this: 1. Men are definitely hunters, in this case "sexual hunters". That is why stable sexual relations of two men are unique, friendships and partnerships are more frequently found. Those who are in such relationships have extra thrills on a side, secretly or openly. Sometimes they invite a third one for a short play (moder hetero couples do the same at least in Scandinavia). 2. There are in general two main types of elderly man on the gay stage:
a. gay whole life (never married to a woman) Type "a" are frequently frustrated and disappointed by "emptiness" of the "real" gay life They tend to have strong mannerisms etc. Type "b" have a lot of mixed feelings. They would like to have a friend (lover) but still prioritise their families or are not able (willing) to disconnect (to the degree needed to create a new relationship) or are afraid of a new life etc. Fears grow proportionally to the age. Emotional life of both types of man seems to be not complete, which gives them a lot of different pains, complications, sufferings, disappointments etc. Therefor they look for complementary relations (whatever it can be). For family homosexuals and especially bisexuals relations with other man will in most cases remain "complementary" due to strongly ambivalent psychological constitution of those individuals. To see the difference it is necessary to look at emotional life and relationships of the "really straight heterosexuals" in comparison to ambivalence of emotions of bisexuals and homosexuals. On the other side we have (in the group of man interested in older man) at least two types: - - young fellows not stable emotionally and often financially (16-25-35 yo) looking for sugar daddies or father-son relations, and - - more matured young man who appreciate companionship of "grey, nice and wise". They look for temperate but warm feelings and good emotions. Those are to be found rather in man with relatively positive life experience who were able to tame (not suppress) their sexual identity. When the younger will grow older they will end up in one of the above mentioned categories of elderly man.
The difference is, I suppose, that modern sexual liberalism will produce more type "a" gays until homosexuality is fully accepted as a part of the modern society.
That seems to be rather long perspective (if ever). As usual the whole story it is a give and take situation. As in old Beatles song: ". in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make..."
AndyHoly As a new subscriber to the list, I would like to throw in my 2 cents worth about my experience on the subject of married men. I met a married man with a 5 year daughter in 1973 (28 years ago on April 29). He was 10 years older than I which was great. What I didn't count on or expect was the fact for most of our 28 years, the wife, whom he had divorced in 1980, and the daughter appeared to come first in his life. At the time, I didn't think there were many options open to me, so I stuck it out, thinking that when the daughter grew up and when the wife remarried, he would consider me and our relationship as being first in his life as I considered it in mine. Well, to make a long story short, it never happened. He died 4 years ago (age of 56) of a massive coronary in bed, while we slept. At least I was there in the end to try to revive him. (Interestingly, neither the exwife nor the daughter were there nor offered any support.) So it seemed that while he could not free himself from his ex-wife and daughter, financially and emotionally, they could. I have mused over this interesting turn of events. To be clear ... my point is I suspect it would difficult for a once married man with children to ever feel as if he could commit fully to a male-male relationship. This has been my experience. I hope it has not been the experience of others. My mother told my brother and I not to date or marry a divorced person. I am sure in her "social and mental paradigm" it was advice that refered to a male/female relationship (hey.. it was the 1950s!)... I should have listened.
Cheers, I have watched this discussion about married men with considerable interest. I am one of those men. Without boring you with my whole life story I will admit that I married at least partially because as a young man in the mid-sixties, marriage was one of the 'cures' for homosexuality. While it may have worked for some, it didn't for me and very shortly after the wedding, I knew I had made a mistake. For a lot of reasons, which are unimportant today, 35 years later, I didn't do the 'right' or 'honorable' thing and end the marriage then. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending upon your point of view, my wife and I have never had an active sexual relationship. Nearly 20 years ago she declared she didn't care if we never had sex again. Much to my surprise she actually gave me permission to have a mistress. My mistake was not telling that I would have preferred a mister. I regret not having done that. Over the years there were times when it would have been appropriate to end my marriage. I never took advantage of those moments and have some regrets about that today. Like many married men desperately seeking to fill a need for intimacy with men, I did all the wrong things. I went to movie houses, parks, bookstores, public restrooms, where ever I hoped to find anonymous sex. Always however, I denied that I was gay. I always hoped that I would find that elusive cure for my disease and finally find happiness in my marriage. Only after many years of therapy with both psychiatrists and psychologists did I finally come out to myself and accept that I am gay. I am quite happy being gay, and it is important to recognize that I do not consider myself 'bi', I'm one of those rare gay men who is truly and completely gay. (I often joke that I probably could not get it up with a woman if my life depended upon it.) The supreme irony is that the psychologist who finally led me down the path to this acceptance of my true being, didn't believe I was gay. Luckily I have experienced the absolutely wonderful feeling of joy and fulfillment that loving another man can bring. I came close, very close to making that fateful decision to leave my wife for him. I had enough reservations about what I was experiencing to hold off. I always told him that much as I wished it could be otherwise, he would always be second in my life to my wife. Ultimately that led him to do what I often told him to do, find someone better for him. He left me, tried another vintage gentleman for awhile and then fell in love with a woman to whom he will soon be married. I only hope that he is truly happy, because I will always love him and desperately want him to find what he seeks in a lifemate. I fear that he is making the same mistake I did, but in order to protect himself he has chosen to totally eliminate me from his life. That may be best for both of us, but I don't know that I will ever be sure. All this, however, is irrelevant to the discussion. I often hear that to be true to myself, I must divorce my wife and allow myself to be the gay man that I am. For some, perhaps many, men that may be the right answer. I do miss the freedom to experience openly the love I shared with my ex-lover. I also recognize that after 35 years of marriage and knowing my wife for over 40 that I do have the right to only what suits me. Am I loyal to her sexually? Of course, not. Was I doing the 'right' thing by allowing myself to become deeply involved with that young man? Obviously not! It would be easy to say that were she to discover my other life she would toss me out on my ear. Perhaps she would. What I do know is that I cannot bring myself to cause her the hurt, to destroy her world, to decimate her future, just so I can be happy. That, to me, is as wrong and morally reprehensible as it is for me to 'cheat' on her. I am reminded of Ashley Wilkes, when Scarlet asked him to leave Melanie and run off to Mexico with her. He said he couldn't and when she asked why, his answer was 'honor'. (Okay, as far as we know Ashley didn't really fool around with Scarlet or any other woman. which in my own way I do.) I want to believe that I have some honor, Maybe not much, but some. To cite another example from literature and movies, does anyone remember "The Bridges of Madison County"? I read it when it first came out because my grandfather was in the Iowa state legislature and helped get those bridges built in the early 1900's. When I saw the book I thought I would be reading about my grandfather. Wasn't I surprised? Pleasantly, though, because I found the book warm and comforting. Where does it apply to this situation? Remember that Francesca was sorely tempted to run off with the Clint Eastwood character. (I too would happily run off with him.) Despite carrying a flame for him for all those years after he left, she remained with her husband. Why? Well in her own way, it was honor. I am far from an honorable individual. I have committed too many sins and expected to continue to do so. Yet, something prevents me from allowing myself to do only what I want to do. I feel compelled to remember that I have other obligations besides myself. Am I a fool? Perhaps. Will I continue to risk all this BS about honor by playing around with men? Yep. My point? All that has been said here about this subject has merit and value. We must always remember though, that each person must chose for himself. Being true to one's self may not fit what other's say it is, but it must fit what one believes about himself.
Hugs to everyone, I have an old and good friend, who is married, and bi, and who "fools around" with guys on occasion. Over the years he has had a number of encounters with both married and single bi men, and gay men both in relationships and "free to play". Ignoring the morality of it all, he has often noted that the big difference is that gay guys have a place to play, and married guys, him included don't. So the logistics are less complicated with gay guys. But the intrerpersonal relationships are far less complex with other married guys, since they tend not to be possive, or fall in love, or be druggies, like many gay guys. He thinks he has had 3 men, over the years, all married (one recently divorced), all bi, with whom he has "made love" rather than just having sex, two off and on for several years. And as for younger/older relationships, (he is now in his mid 60's), he has had his share of younger guys, gay and bi, single and married, and finds them to be as short lived, or long lived, on the average as same age, but there sure is less to talk about the bigger the age gap, although the younger the other guy is, on the average, the hotter the sex. Your theology, or morality, or ethics may dictate what you do: I was approached by an older Belgian Catholic priest once, when in my 20's, and spent a wonderful 2 days with him in Paris. He taught me alot, in many ways, and although I was amazed that he would come on to me, I was flattered, and made no judgements about MY culpability in the matter, ie, I did not see myself as the Devil, leading him astray. As others have commented, if it were not me, it would have been someone else.
And, he believed in the afterlife, which I do not, and even he wanted to
live life to its fullest. So, my advise to married guys is if you decide to
go for it, play discretely and safely.
I think that relationship is almost Polyamory (did I have it spelled right?) I say almost because the women don't participate. But then again, these women have enough common sense (or female intuition for that matter) and know that even though sex is fun it can also screw things up (and I don't mean that way ;7))
Hugs n' kisses I am another of those gay men who thought that getting married and living a 'straight life' was the cure for the evil thoughts and desires I had always harbored since I was old enough to think about sex. I grew up in an Irish Catholic household having a New York City policeman as my father. One did not admit to preferring sucking cock to chasing girls as a teenager. I knew al the neighborhood boys in a very intimate way and they all played the same games that I did. But while in the service I met a girl that I truly fell in love with, wooed and wed. I enjoyed sex with her and we had a nice family. I never got over the lust for other men, but I kept it under control. After 17 years together she asked for a divorce and I begged her to stay and help raise the children. She did so, under her terms, she went to work and we adjusted to her independence. She began taking separate vacations and many weekend trips away alone. Of course, the sexual side of our marriage dwindled and dried up. But I kept hoping and kept trying to make the union work. Finally I succumbed to the temptation of a young friend of the family and all the old yearnings rushed back into my mind. I began reading gay magazines and jerking off to relieve my frustrations. She found one of my books and put two and two together and began to plot to leave. Within a few years she did so. We celebrated 29 years of marriage before the divorce decree was final. I was both devastated at my failure to live a straight life and relieved that I no longer had to try. Eight years later through a quirk of fate I met a young man through an ad. We met and there was a strong attraction from the moment we made eye contact. Unlike other young guys that I had encountered since my divorce he wasn't interested in a quick roll in the hay and on his way. We did not become intimate for many months after we met, but we began to be in love from that first date. Five months of dating and we made the bold decision to come out to our families and begin living as a couple. I was 60 and he 31. It has been the most unusual thing that has ever happened to me. This young man has taught me to trust and love another human as I have never done. He wants only the best for me and is totally accepted by my family and friends because his concern for me is so blatantly obvious. We have been together for well over four years and are still very much in love. Certainly there are issues that crop up with the difference in our ages, but compared to the joy of sharing life with one another they are very workable. I am not sure I would appreciate him as much as I do, had I not lived my life as I did. But I now know more happiness than I ever imagined I would experience in this life. I wish for all others the same joy.
Have a great day! Honor and Commitment... 2 very strong words. Let's not forget the wedding vow also include "for better and for worst!" If "Honor and Commitment" & "for better and for worst" are truly the ideal and/or model in which a married man should live by, then why does he allow himself to be compromised by having extra-marital affairs, whether it is with a guy or woman? Point here is that, if married man should choose to meet other guys then please do not use "honor and commitment" as an rationale to have the "best of both world." The argument that one has sexual and emotional needs; therefore, one goes out to meet other guys and then say I also have "honor and commitment" sound kind of like a oxymoron; because when he married that woman, he also vowed "for better and for worst." Which means that he also need to bear the worst, in this case, his urge for the lust and intimacy of a male body.
If a married guy wants to fulfill his sexual and emotional needs with another
man, my suggestion is to go for the anonymous /casual sex encounter. I know
it is not the ideal because most of us want sex with intimacy and emotional
connection with the other person; but given the "honor and commitment" that a
married guy has; perhaps, the better compromise is to accept less of the
emotional gratification. Bottom line here is that, A MARRIED MAN CAN'T NOT
AFFORD OR ALLOW TO START ANY emotional connection unless he is willing to
ovecome the "honor and commitment." That is why the casual sex encounter
would make the best sense for both parties.
Walt - In addition to honor, may I use the word commitment? Almost 40 years ago I made a pledge "'till death do us part"! A part of me wishes to be single and able to pursue a gay life. However, life is OFTEN CHOOSING THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS! As I see my life now, it is better for everyone that I chose to remain with my wife. Once I decide otherwise, I cannot return to this side of the decision if I learn the choice was unwise. Therefore, I chose to remain on this side -- staying with my wife and being true to my commitment. Thank you again for being so literate.
Hugs- ...gay guys have a place to play...married guys don't. This is definitely the case in my experience as well. The logistics of finding a single friend's apartment for long term meetings -- more personal and less expensive and how do you explain a hotel/motel on your credit car or in cash to your spouse? -- takes up a lot of one's time and energy. While gay men usually come with accommodations unless they live with their parents or are not out to roommates or flatmates. See below: ...logistics...less complicated with gay guys..... But intrerpersonal relationships are...less complex with...married guys, since they tend not to be possessive, or fall in love, or be druggies.... This has been my experience as well. The advantages gay men may have logistically is often accompanied by expectations that other married men (and one can be happily married and have children and still be want to be with men) will not have. So, I find that my friendship with another married man where we share the same experiences and have found a way to fulfill our similar needs together much easier and more comfortable. Regarding the issues below: Age is only a secondary issue when you compare it to intelligence and personality and interests. My married friend is 22 years younger than I and I often give him advice about child raising and life in general. But I admire his intelligence and we talk about everything ... Because he is young and very attractive the sex is hot and everything else is good and we have fun and enjoy each other's company and have been for over 5 years... ...he has had 3 men...married (one divorced), all bi, with whom he has "made love"...two...for several years. ...he has had his share of younger guys, gay and bi, single and married, and finds them...as short...or long lived...as same age..... Regarding the below: I do not think culpability is necesarily an issue. If the wives know and -- I am even very close friends with his wife - -- then it is out in the open and honest. But even if it is furtive that does not necessarily have to mean it is immoral everything depends on the circumstances and the contexts and the parties involved. ...I was approached by an older...priest...in my 20's, and spent...2 days with him in Paris...I...made no judgments about MY culpability..... The point is that it was you and it was him and that was what made this encounter special and unique. Every one must make his own decisions and take responsibility for them. ...my advice to married guys is...play discreetly and safely. The same advice goes for unmarried men as well: life is short and we should try to have as meaningful a life as possible with people who bring us and to whom we bring plasure and joy.
I would like to add that I have found this to be one of the best discussions
on the list.
I am always pleased that such a horny, sexually keen group of men can also have such interesting and excellent discussions of real value. (Although sometimes the pictures have my mind running elsewhere, and one hand busy) That said, I must say that I remember a period of my life where it was ONLY married men. I still don't know how that happened. But that passed. Now, when I think about the issue, a piece of a song pops into my head. It's from Millie Jackson's cover of "If Loving You is Wrong, I Don't Want To Be Right." She does a spoken interlude and delivers, to me, the most memorable line.
"And the best thing about bein' in love with a married man is that on wash
day, you ain't got nobody's funky drawers to wash but your own!
I am a 43 year old married bi guy. I've been with both other married men and gay men. I agree with Sam about the logistics being better with gay men but I have found a lot of gay men have no clue that married men have to tend to family and other business. It is as though you can drop everything and visit them whenever they are available. I know it not fair to gay men that the schedule of meetings depends entirely on the married guy's schedule but that is the way it frequently is. I think it is important that that is understood up front. My tastes run to older married guys and I have found alot of them have some place to get together whether it be their homes or rental units they own. I have found some of these senior married guys are ready to have lasting relationships that have some emotional ties included. Others are looking for quick semi-anonymous sex. Whether or not it is called 'love' or not depends on the two people involved. I have found some great friends in older married guys. They have been through the bi husband/father thing and have alot of great ideas on handling this situation. I personally prefer the older married guys because of our common experiences and their understanding of my situation.
Steve It's deemed encouragable when such a dialogue can be established and see the thinking of others on such a delicate subject and emotional thought provoking theme. As a divorced father, priest and gay man, I tend to see most of the justification for our own needs and wont. The lasciviousness how we approach our own sexual entanglement can either deceive us as to what we want or who we are in life. My very first relationship after my divorce was with a married man, and though it was fulfilling, I was always left thinking of his wife and if she knows where his seeds are being placed. We did form a good friendship that allowed me to meet his wife and thereby easing the pain that had caused him and I to sorta 'justify' our relationship. Did he leave his wife for me? ..No ... would he of ? .. No .. And this I understood, but it did show a certain amount of selfishness on his behalf mainly when I decided to leave the 'relationship', I was accused of being selfish and not loving. Most times, I have questioned why do married men sleep with another male, I heard and read here, it's a lust or because of circumstances and the era one lived in, marriage was the only thing that could of been done. But there was also a vow at marriage whereby whatever was existing in our loins is now to be carried out and fulfilled to one person only. This I think is the totally missed with married men and those engaging with them. I commend those who took the step not to live a double life, which not only hurt those involved but the action also hurt the innocent, the wife, whether she knows or not. So many questions can be asked but there's one that I ask myself and encourage my friends to ask themselves when confronted with this situation, is it honorable to sleep with another man, knowing he's married? There's such a debate that can be followed on this subject but it all comes back to our own choices, whether we are hurting a person intentionally or non-intentionally. Our own knowledge of priorities and commitment should guide us.
Regards,
Listers,
For those of you who made suggestions about what I should do, thank you. I may not choose to take your advice, but I cannot adequately express my gratitude that you care enough to offer it. For those few who took exception to my choices, again thank you for giving me something to think about. As you can imagine, much of what you said is already a part of the constant quandary in my daily life. To the one kind gentleman who challenged me for failing to keep my marriage vows, but admitted to breaking both his marriage and priestly vows, I would remind him that for some, his vows were a lifetime commitment. That hardly justifies my actions, but perhaps suggests he should be more understanding of others choices. There were so many responses that I simply do not have time to write everyone individually. I want to repeat my gratitude and remind so many of you that a lot of your names were ones I never see on the list. All of us have something important to contribute and I would hope that many of you will take the time to consider adding your own thoughts and comments to some of the discussions that take place here. We all enjoy the fun pictures, cute jokes, and even the occasional attempt at picking someone up. Yet, when a bunch of guys likes us can express our feelings and learn from each other then this and other lists like it raise themselves from just fun to truly meaningful. This exchange has added immensely to my own understanding of my feelings and made me more comfortable with myself. I hope it can do the same for many of you.
Hugs, Boy do I know this feeling... I am presently seeing a 69 yr old Priest who can't give me anything else than sex. He can't afford to be 'outed' and he doesn't know when he'll retire so that he can live his life out in public. I'm afraid he'll just be too old before he does, either that or die a priest. Problem is that I like him very much, he's the type of guy that everybody wants to wind up with (smart, sexy, very loving, and a very wonderful person to know personally). I can't say that I have many 'lonely' nights as I belong to Prime Timers and have a nice selection of 'beef', but, this Priest has a real hold on my heart, but, I'm mature enough (now) that I know better. I'll just enjoy him while I have him and when the day comes to give him up, it'll just have to be done...
David An experience about being involved with a married man. I was married and had an 18 month old son when I met my partner. Thing is, I had always known that I was gay for as long as I could remember. John and I moved in together after a month and have been there ever since, some 11 years. Coming to terms with the idea of loosing him soon to cancer has been hard but I would not trade a day. You should not worry about whether or not the married man will leave his wife. If you love him and he loves you enough it will happen and you will be happy. My advice; GO FOR IT! Life is no rehearsal and you don't get a second crack at it. Regret nothing and learn from everything.
Bob aka bobbybear
I was a married man of 28 years, when Imet a gay man and fell in love, I went to my wife after a year in counseling and told her I could nolonger stay married. We parted as friends, and she accepted my partner, and so did my 25year old son. I did the right thing for me and my lover. The story gets worse...He aske me to have a committment cceremony, and pledge our love before our families and friends. I agreed, it was two weeks before my sons marraige. That was six years ago. It should be noted that he was the first gay only male |I ever had an encounter with, all others to that point were married. Six years later I find he has been having an affair. And it has not been the first as I have found out since. I was devestated. Apparently by my being married for 28 years, and he never being committed,made a difference. I was ready to be committed, however he seems unable to do the same. So....married men, be very careful about leaving the nest. You must leave for yourself and not for another person. I don't regret my leaving, however, I definitely didn't betray him. Bob ------------------------------ From: Soogood39@aol.com Subject: Re: Doing it with married men I agree. Doing it with a married man can be the hottest sex you have ever experienced. I am married and my wife loves the fact that I like to have man to man sex. The only trouble is that I would like to find one guy that would like to have sex on a regular basis and so many guys just want the one time thing. I would prefer another married guy because we would not have to supply each other emotional needs, we would be free to concentrate on hot recreational sex as often as we liked. If there are likely candidates that share my interest. . . you know what to do! Waiting on the right situation ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Dettch Dettch" dettch@hotmail.com Subject: Subject: Re: Doing it with married men
Your solution only "ups" the chances of bringing home a terrible disease to
the wife. I can't see any cirucumstance where casual sex is a good solution
for anything. Regardless of how emotionally detached you are you also set
up your partners for pain because it might not be in their "playbook" to
stay detached. Besides, do you really think it is that easy to stay
detached....I doubt it is possible for most of us.
Regards
Bob Dettloff
det Well I might as well put my two cents in...sex is what I was after and doing it with another married man was the safest way I could think..they wouldn't tell, they were doing it too. The chance of disease was much less..married guys tend to be more careful as to not bring anything home. Didn't see many men. Just a couple in a two year span. One was married to a woman and the other to the church. That one was a big surprise to me.. not that I don't know it happens but would like to be able to make the choice. Then things changed...I could no longer live the lie I was leading all my life. My divorce is final and has been for over a year now. I wasn't even looking for a partner. Just met up with this gentleman at a camping sight I was at last summer. He smelled my cooking and came over. I invited him to stay. He was camping alone as well. I camp for solitude and the great outdoors is the best place to find that. I really didn't have anything in mind but maybe friendship...went a lot farther than that and a long story. But the bottom line is....I was with this gentle...kind..compansionate man for 6 months when he said to me, "Let's move in together" I said yes, until he said to me," We can move in together and then I can get a divorce from my wife." boy did he keep that one a secret. Well almost a year later we are still seeing each other...(great sex but also great companionship and company...not just the sex thing anymore)we are not living together. I believe he is actualy telling me the truth that he is getting a divorce, spends more time with me than his wife.. drives an hour each way to be here and does it at least five tiems a week. He told me that he has never been as happy as he has been since we have been together. Not blowing my own bugle here, never have, but I have been a very happy camper too...So you see I have been on both sides of the fence and I say...just like someone else said. "Go for it" you only live once and I believe the old saying is--"Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all......"
hugs to all My experience was almost identical to Woddybear's.
Pete
Dear Ben and List Re me: i'm a divorced bisexual; have a girl friend and a married bisexual lover. He knows she doesn't. My lover and i have been together 10+ yrs Here is my $.02 worth. Sex is GOOD; God loves us; wants to be happy; and gave us orgasms. God made us all- bi, gay, and straight (in "his?" image????) God doesn't make mistakes. Sex with love is best; just sex is good(had to repeat myself); i've never had a Bad orgasm. Sex outside of marriage occurs because one's needs within marriage are not met!! When married, i didn't (still don't) think man sex is cheating. A woman, to state the obvious, is not a man; God made me a bisexual and i have a need for man to man sex; fulfilling that need is not wrong. i'm not a sexist pig who thinks that a wife must submit to all the sex her husband wants/demands; BUT it's Not Right for a husband or anyone to live is a state of sexual depravation/stravation; even many of those who choose or try to be celebate are unable to do so. Gays and Bi's who marry and are sexually starved within marriage have had their wife break their marriage "vows" and to me the contract is void (atleast the sexual exclusivity part) My orientation was not the cause of our divorce. Currently, i'm having man and "hereroid" sex and enjoy both as often as possible. i remain single because i have more freedom (among other reasons)for sex and freedom in general. Sex is Good; sex with love is Better; sometimes we get lucky!
Peace
How about, "It's better to have flunked your Wasserman than never to have
loved at all?" OK, I confess. I have had sex with a married man. More than one. I was married at the time. We were both married at the time. In the 1950's and 1960's, there was nothing unusual about this. Lest you be confused, I have not been married since 1975.
George of Boston (Boston Bill) Although Robert's letter has prompted my comments, I don't mean to single him out for taking a "moral" stance, which many have done. I don't even completely disagree with his observations, but I _do_ want to make the point that moral stances tend to be relative and subjective. The original injunction against adultery came from the Hebrew scriptures and had a rather limited meaning: Adultery only existed when a Jewish wife engaged in sexual intercourse with a man other than her husband. The Jewish husband was _not_ guilty of adultery for sexual intercourse with a gentile woman whether she was married or not. Times change and so has the usual sense of the meaning of adultery.
Not everyone marries with vows of sexual exclusivity. Not everyone has a
moral stance based on negative moral absolutes (that is the "thou shalt
nots") that clearly defines "right" and "wrong" in all situations. I think
so called "situational ethics" are pretty much out of favor at the moment as
a _system_, but as a practical matter many of us do tend to work this way.
It seems to me that any strong moral stance should always be accompanied by
the disclaimer "according to my belief system" and not made as "absolutes." I think a very good point is made here about 'morality' and one's 'personal belief system'. There are many people whose 'personal belief sytem' condemns and damns any and all homosexual action and even thought. I would certainly agree that the homosexual community should attempt to adopt mores that are closer to those of society's standards. For too many men and woman jumping from one bed to another is our unalienable right. I think not. But we must also remember that there will always be some people who will take umbrage at anything we say or do. There is a balance and morals have a place in finding that balance. I don't agree with situational ethics (though I admit to practicing it), but I do feel that it is possible to be 'moral' and 'ethical' while living one's life as the cards have been dealt.
Walt
Walt: I can conceive of bedding a married guy. But I think I would have assessed that he is freely entering into a sexual situation with me, is aware of what he is doing and accepts whatever consequences that may arise (including, in his relationship with his wife.) I am not responsible for his (moral) choices. I am accountable for my choices. I need to think it through with my head, not my dick. That being said, I can see bedding a married guy as an act of "compassion" or as the height of folly and delusion. I can conceive of the fact that I am being merely used by my sexual partner, entering into the delusion that there are no consequences for us for the act(s). Ot I can be inadvertently fostering the idea that I continue to be "queer" while he pretends he's straight. I can also conceive that sex may be simply a "fun" thing and essentially "harmless"--harder to conceive but it happens. In other words, judgment and context is all. And we still make mistakes...:>)
Eric End of silverfoxesclub-digest V1 #227
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