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In this issue:
-Fwd: Twisted Humor
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"The Penis Poem" - Rated R
My nookie days are over,
Time was when, on its own accord,
Joke of the day: Thanks for the compliments to my posting. I'm glad I struck the right chord with a lot of people. As for you being blind, well, that doesn't stop you from having a personality inside does it? It's the person within that is most important to me. And besides, when having a deep passionate kiss how many guys keep their eyes open?!!! We all know that when having sex our sense of touch becomes much greater, and we wouldn't need our eyesight to enjoy the sensual pleasures ;-) And I'm for sure you'd be a wonderful friend too Bob, not forgetting of course the lovely Harley!
One Hugs,
Further to my last posting on this subject, the chap who originally contacted me has done so again with some more questions. Once again, these answers are from my point of view and express my opinions and experiences. In some respects I am quite the wrong person to ask due to my limited experience, but maybe some of the answers will strike a chord with many of you out there. Perhaps if there is anyone out there with different answers to these questions they could post them to the list? I'd also be interested to know whether others have a different slant on the subject. Anyway, here's the latest batch: Thank you for taking the time and trouble to answer my last series of questions so comprehensively. I'm starting to get a much better idea of what goes on in these old/ young relationships from the eyes of a younger man. However, I do have just a few more questions to ask and would be grateful if you could shed some light on them for me please? Once again, I'll do my best. But don't take what I say as gospel as it is purely my opinion and may not reflect what others think. Are there any negative aspects to these kind of relationships? Does the age gap cause a problem? Like with any relationship there are of course plus and minus points. Probably the biggest problem is the fact that an older and younger guy may have different approaches to life along with different interests. A very young guy may well want to go clubbing, pubbing and staying out late, whereas the older guy even if he wanted to may simply not have the energy or stamina to keep up. This is more so the bigger the age gap and the more extreme the ages. Men of retirement age or older hooking up with a guy in his late teens/ early twenties I would suspect would be more likely to experience problems. A younger guy is more likely to want to live and experience life, whilst the older man has already 'been there and done that'. It's about compromise and respecting each other. A younger man who drags his mature partner out on the town till the small hours of the morning against his will is being totally inconsiderate and disrespectful, and an older guy who expects a younger man to sit at home every night equally so. There is also the generation gap problem in an old/young relationship. Quite often an older guy will have a knowledge that preceeds the date his lover was born, and the younger man may be more clued up to up to the minute fashions and developments. Unless there is an understanding between the two it is all too easy to end up with a communication breakdown. Allowances have to be made for each other and that surely is what any relationship is about. Are there any age groups that cause more problems that others? Interesting question this one. Once again it's very much a case of extremes, with the very oldest and very youngest most likely to have problems. At the older end of the spectrum it is quite obvious. Health and mind can deteriorate the older a man gets and it can be a huge strain on a relationship. Being a chubby chaser I am also very aware of health problems later on in life, such as joint problems, fatigue, diabetes, sleep apnoea, heart problems etc. Luckily most younger silverfox/ chubby chasers have a far greater understanding of getting old than the average man, though of course there are some that don't. Plus there are some older silverfox chasers who really ought to know better... The younger end is a different story. Very young silverfox chasers will be going through change as they mature and fully enter into manhood. Those older guys who like their men very young need to understand this. In my case it was very true. I was a sixteen year old virgin fresh out of school when I met my forty eight year old (ex) boyfriend, thought I knew it all but in hindsight I realise I knew very little. Of course as the years passed I grew up, both mentally and physically, as I finally fully entered into manhood. Sadly this is what I think led to the break up of my relationship as my ex was still very much attracted to innocent young 'twinkie' men and his interest in me waned as I left my teenage years behind. The end result being that I felt like I was on the scrapheap, no longer attractive to anyone and unable to compete with the pretty young things that were following in my footsteps. Luckily, having discovered the older man/ chubby gay scene and internet, I now know that not to be the case and I am more likely to have a much longer term relationship now I am fully into manhood. In fact, it was a pleasant suprise when I found that some silverfoxes only like guys over 30 years old. Below that much younger men can too often be volatile and subject to change as the transition from boy to man takes place. So an older man really has to understand and respect that, as the difference between 16 and 24 (as in my case) is very big and noticeable. Once over 25 the changes occur much more gradually, and sometimes 10 years make very little changes, such as when a guy goes from 50 - 60. Are there any problems with old/ young on the gay scene? Who 'picks up' who? Of course there are problems here. One is that there always seem to be many more older guys than younger, therefore it isn't possible for everyone to find a partner. There aren't enough men in both camps! Or rather many younger men won't admit to themselves that they really fancy older guys.... The same also applies to the chubby/ chaser community, though surprisingly enough the older chubs (50+) nearly all get snapped up very quickly and it's the chasers who outnumber them. From my experience, the biggest downside to being a young, slim man who likes older/ chubby men is the following:- Whenever anything goes wrong between an older and younger guy, outsiders nearly always seem to blame the latter. I had a couple of failed attempts with forming a relationship but thought it decent not to discuss the matter with all and everyone. Maybe it was just my in case, but I got the feeling that I was looked upon at being at fault and had even been accused of 'playing' with peoples emotions. Because I kept my business to myself (I could write a very long essay as to why the two failed relationships wouldn't work) people never seemed to think that perhaps the older chubbies had in fact been playing with my emotions. I experienced a lot of negativity and predjudice and was very hurt by the reactions of some people. So much so that I didn't even attempt to find a Mr. Right again for nearly six months. It was very much people judging a book by it's cover without knowing what was really going on. But then again, maybe that's just the gay scene for you. Those bitchy Queens get everywhere, even on the older/ chubby man circuit! As to who picks up who, there is no real pattern or hard and fast rules. Sometimes a very handsome older man will have silver fox hunters falling over each other to get to him, while other older men try it on with anyone they can. Some older guys look longingly at younger men and think they have no chance. In my case as a young man liking silver foxes, I am very bad at making the first move as I just clam up and get very shy. I often wish that the guy I fancy would come up and talk to me first! Many times I hear an older guy tell me that they don't see what anyone sees in them, and is still not convinced when I tell them how handsome they are. So many factors come into play, in particular this attitude from some older guys that no one could possibly find them attractive. They think that because the media pushes this 'young, slim and beautiful' image as seen in so much advertising, that is all that people are attracted to. They cannot see how an ageing/ grey haired/ balding/ portly gent like themselves can possibly be the object of anyones desires. How wrong they are! We as an older/ younger community need to get the message across that old can be beautiful, and very much IS beautiful. And as the saying goes 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', not from what commercial advertising leads us to believe. You only have to see which celebrity silver foxes names come up time and time again as young mens fantasies. Ed Asner, Wilfred Brimley and Bob Hoskins are very popular, as are Norman Schwarzkopf, John Goodman (a bit on the young side!) and Sean Connery. The list by no means ends here. What about predjudice from the 'average' gay man? Is it a problem? Do you find that people who aren't aware of the older/ younger scene have no understanding of what attracts opposites? Yes, this is a problem. That's why groups/ clubs and societies were set up for older men and their admirers in the first place because of the negativity towards them from the 'average' gay man. 'Is he a friend? Is that your dad? Surely you two aren't lovers?' are statements I've heard often when with an older guy. Add the 'chubby' into the equation and the look of shock on some peoples faces when they realise that you are together is quite a picture. 'But he's twice your size, surely you can't fancy him?' is what I've been told. And yes, he may be twice my size and twice my age, but that's how I like them. People often jump to conclusions and assume that the younger man is only with the older man for his money. Even though in some cases I've known it's the younger guy who was by far better off! Of course, there are those who just don't understand what the attraction between old and young is all about. 'There's an old guy/ fat guy' etc.. 'Surely you must fancy him because that's what you like isn't it?' As mentioned in my earlier email, there isn't any one thing that makes a younger man fancy and older man and probably vice versa too. But that is something those who don't understand can't seem to get to grips with. Perhaps a saying I learnt some years ago rings true with regards to this: 'For those who know, no explanation is needed. For those who don't know, no explanation is possible'. I hope you don't mind me asking, but are there any problems when it comes to having sex? Do you find that older men simply can't take the pace set by the younger man? Couldn't help but smile at this one! This is totally dependant on certain points, the main being whether a couple are top/ bottom/ versatile/ neither. If the older guy is 'top', and the younger man is 'bottom' then obviously an older man cannot achieve or sustain an erection like he could in his youth. There may be problems here with differences in sexual drive. The younger 'bottom' may feel unfulfilled because his partner cannot satisfy him as much as he'd like. In this respect yes, there will be times when the older guy cannot stand the pace. Now, with regards to the other way round i.e. younger man is 'top' and the older man is 'bottom' the same can apply! For some reason or another, older 'bottoms' seem to have an incredibly high sex drive and can easily oupace their younger lovers. Many times I have heard from fellow silver foxhunters that this gorgeous silver fox they found has worn them out and made their cocks sore! 'I'm knackered, I can't keep up with him' is an expression that I've often heard. There are times then when the younger partner cannot stand the pace set by the silver fox. 'Versatile' couples have the best of both worlds as they can switch to suit each others moods. But I'm sure there are times when a versatile couple argue 'I want to go bottom tonight', 'No, I want to go bottom. You were bottom last night'! Sometimes I've had to explain to a silver fox bottom (I'm a 'top') that there are only so many times that I can cum in one night as he eagerly starts sucking away at my shrivelled and worn out member! Just like in a relationship, compromises and allowances need to be made for each other. The skill of good sex and lovemaking is to read your partner and give them the pleasure that THEY want to receive, not just what YOU want to give them. Tune in to each other and you can have mind blowing sex whatever the age differences. Do you have any advice for an older guy who seeks a relationship with a younger man? Anything he should or shouldn't do? First and formost, my advice to the older guy is to be yourself, and act your age. By that I don't mean stop behaving like a purile youngster, but if you are 50 years old, then act 50 years old. For me as an older man lover, the biggest turn off is a guy who tries to act 'trendy' or worse still, as a youth. You know the ones, they dye their hair to hide the grey, they wear the 'street casual' clothes that all the kids wear and basically try to act like they are many years younger. For sure, there may be some younger guys who like men like this, but surely the whole reason that us youngsters like older men is because they LOOK and ACT like older men. That is the whole point! Remember what it was like when you were a kid playing some raucous, rebellious music. Typical teenage angst and such like. Then your mum or dad puts their head round the door and says 'That's a nice tune dear. Can you record it for me?' Kind of changed everything didn't it? You'd consign that record to the dustbin as it was now 'deeply uncool', you couldn't have your parents liking the same music as you! So with an intergenerational relationship the partners want to be different, it's very much a case of opposites attract. Other advice for the older guy is to be careful how he handles the younger man. Don't be clingy or posessive, respect him as a person not just as a youthfull sex object. Give him space too. Don't question the fact that he fancies you, believe me if he didn't he'd be looking elsewhere straight away. The fact that he likes you is proof enough for the time being. Also don't rush into commitment. Younger men are often free spirits and enjoy the new found freedom that they have. They may not be quite ready to settle down as much as an older guy would be. Too often older guys rush headlong into a relationship and scare off the younger guy. Saying 'I love you' after a couple of dates just won't wash and can leave the other man running for cover. Love at first sight can happen, but it is rare. Love grows over time, normally after the initial hi-energy lust and passion of sex has subsided and the couple REALLY get to know each other. Then comes the realisation that you can't live without each other and become inseparable. You are now in love! But likewise be wary of the youngster who isn't quite ready to settle down yet, but wants to have a semi relationship AND the freedom to meet other men for sex. Either just be friends with them and maybe something more will happen later, enter into an 'open' realtionship as long us the trust between you is there or just settle for some fun times in the sack every now and then. Whatever you do don't try and make the situation into something it is not. Just because a younger guy meets you every so often or goes out with you as a companion does not mean you are in a relationship. Discuss this first, and if he doesn't want a relationship but is happy with friendship then settle for that or move on. Don't try and weedle a relationship through the back door as it will only cause pain and heartache for the both of you. Once again, thank you in advance for answering my questions. I appreciate you taking the time and trouble to do so as it helps me understand the whole old/ young attraction. Not at all. I am by no means an expert on the subject and again have to stress that these are my views and opinions. How I see it is very different to how others may. And do bear in mind that I have very limited experience too having only been on the gay scene for the last three years. However, I think I have learnt one heck of a lot in such a short time compared to the naive and somewhat innocent man I was when I made my first tentative steps into the gay scene. Hope this may be of interest to the list!
Hugs to you all,
Thanks for your kind words Vic, Despite what you may say you are a very handsome and attractive man (I saw your advert and contacted you a few months back to say so!) Just because you are 'overweight and balding' does not make you unattractive. And as for being 'nothing special to look at', well, let us silverfox hunters be the judge of that ;-) I certainly think you are cute, and the sooner the world wakes up to the fact that you don't have to be young and skinny to be beautiful the better. The best thing of all is that you already know that it is 'what's inside that matters'. See, even you know that beauty goes beyond pure aesthetics! I'm sure some lucky silverfox hunter may find you soon Vic, and you will then realise what a good looking guy you are. Take care, and hugs to you,
Chas
I think Chas makes some very valid points. The one I'd like to address is the younger guy going out clubbing while the older guy stays at home. I would hope that if there is an intergenerational relationship, the younger guy would perhaps not need to sow his wild oats, and would be perhaps a bit more settled. Otherwise, I can foresee problems. But, as Chas also mentioned, it is important for the younger guy to respect that the older guy may not have the stamina or energy level that he does. When I took a trip to Quebec with two friends, at times, I would just let my friends go off on their own. I did this because I found the terrain difficult, and my friends were guiding me constantly, and I felt they needed a rest to explore a bit on their own. Usually, this was absolutely fine with me, as I was a bit tired from all the walking we did. Towards the end of the trip, we went to visit some waterfalls. My friends wanted to walk across a bridge to be near the falls; they asked me if I wanted to come, but I declined, and sat on a bench, listening to conversation around me, until they got back. Even though I kinda wanted to go, it was nearing the end of our trip, and I wanted them to enjoy the last bit of sightseeing. So, I think that a lot of compromise has to take place when a man is much older, or is disabled. I also think that a younger guy has to realize that health problems might crop up for the older guy, and the younger guy needs to be able to deal with these in a mature way. The same dynamics I would imagine, take place between super-chubs and chasers.
Bob and Harley
Bob,
One thing I've learned over the past 7 years in my relationship is that older guys tend to be settled down, we hardly ever go to bars (the smoke alone is a good reason why), along with the loud music, a person can't hold a for decent conversation due the the extreme volume the bars play music. Another thing I've grown accustomed to is Daddy no longer being able to get a woody, not only mine, but most of the older guys I meet usually can't get up to bat..and I don't mind one bit, I more than make up for it..but, it would be nice to get a nice stiff one every once in a while. Besides, I'm more of a "ball" man myself, love them low hangers!! Every Daddy I've ever been with has pleased me..I can't wait til mine hang as low as some of the ones I've had... Just wanted to let you all know that not all of us young 'uns are inconsiderate...
David
Headline:
Text: A magazine advertisement for Mitchell Gold furniture carries the tagline "A kid deserves to feel at home." It pictures a smiling, blond toddler perched in a miniature club chair in front of two smiling, casually dressed, barefoot parents relaxing on a couch. Two men. TV ads have featured deaf shoppers at Wal-Mart and print ads have shown models in wheelchairs, but gay couples with children represent the final frontier in the advertising world. "Society is more diverse and more complex," said Dan Jaffe, a spokesman for the Association of National Advertisers. While each company sets its own advertising standards, "the general trend is toward women, seniors, the multi-cultural community and anyone else that can be identified," he said. "These ads show parents so normal, so defanged and not having horns, it can be jarring," added Scott Seomin, entertainment and media director of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD). Mitchell Gold, owner of the Taylorsville, N.C., furniture company that bears his name, said the ad was intended to be an eye-grabber. "The reality is we do it to catch people's attention," he said. The ad first ran in The New York Times Magazine and also has appeared in House & Garden, Metropolitan Home and The Advocate, a gay-oriented monthly. "Family is family," Gold said, "and in this context the ad makes perfect sense. It's the ad I'm most proud of. ... We're pushing the envelope - with style." He said reaction has been largely favorable, but others would prefer not to see such ads. "This is an America that is numb from years of nonstop sex on TV, at the White House," said Jack Fowler, associate publisher of The National Review, the conservative magazine. "More and more of yesterday's taboos are not taboos anymore. Do I find it personally offensive? Yes," Fowler said. The John Hancock ad showing two parents at an airport with their newly adopted child received wide attention: It aired during the Summer Olympics. John Hancock's ads have "historically had a real-life feel," said Stephen Burgay, the company's vice president of corporate communications. "Overseas adoption is becoming a more familiar sight. Our products can help no matter how a child comes into a family," he added. Sources who saw an earlier version of the ad, created by Boston ad agency Hill Holliday Connors Cosmopulos, said it originally was more overt: "You'll make a great mom," one woman says as the ad draws to a close. "So will you," her partner replies. But in a later version, those lines were deleted. As one woman kisses the child, the final words are, "We're a family." While starring a lesbian couple, the ad isn't necessarily aimed at same-sex parents. "We don't intend for ads to target specific segments," Burgay said. Rather, the ideal John Hancock customer is "affluent, educated, with disposable and discretionary income." One group, the American Family Association, a conservative Christian organization led by the Rev. Donald Wildmon, asked readers on its Web site to ask John Hancock "to stop the promotion of homosexuality to our children. (Tell the company) this fierce attack on the institution of the American family will weigh heavily upon your current and future choice of insurance provider." Until recently, advertising showing gay families has been virtually nonexistent in the mainstream media, something some parents find distressing. "I've seen nothing about gay and lesbian families" in advertising, said Leslie Deutsch, a gay upper West Side mother of two boys. "For kids growing up, this would be very reassuring, and make them more comfortable," she said of the portrayal of gay families as normal. Ads featuring gays have been commonplace in gay publications for years, though eight years ago, furniture retailer Ikea, then new to the U.S., overestimated the acceptance of the U.S. public with a short-lived TV spot that showed two men shopping together for a dining room table. But in years since, ads on national TV or in widely circulated magazines have become far more open. The Subaru car company has been using tennis star Martina Navratilova, who is openly lesbian, as a spokeswoman in one of its latest mainstream TV ads.
While ad portrayals of gay parents remain rare,
barriers are falling, said GLAAD's Seomin. The
next frontier, he said, is sure to be even more
provocative: advertising addressing the interests
of gay youth.
The following is posted with the permission of Ben Boxer. The dates of the CR Gathering are June 1-4. Please don't write to Ben about the event since he is not involved. If you interested, please use the Silverfoxes Clubhouse link to CR on the Links Page or address your query directly to Crpi@aol.com
Edward
The latest rumor from Florida, spreading like wild fire, is that Eden Roc "wants out of the contract with CR" because it is now owned by Marriott. Please spread the word that this is absolutely false. Marriott/Renaissance is an excellent, gay-friendly organization not associated with the owners of Radisson Twin Towers in Orlando. We have sold out of rooms at the Eden Roc and all indicators promise a successful gathering, but we cannot afford to have registrations suddenly tapering off because of yet another stupid rumor. Rumors in the past have hurt us terribly. Please do all you can to help us squash this rumor, forwarding this message to those who would be willing to help.
Respectfully, End of silverfoxesclub-digest V1 #104
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