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In this issue:
-Combined threads: Loneliness + On-line vs Real-life (15)
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PopEyer2@AOL.COM wrote: From: Robert Feinstein harlynn@panix.com Boy do I agree!!!!!!!!! If someone won't talk with me via phone, it means things won't work out because the voice is so important and the way two people relate via live chat! You are the first sighted person I have read who seems to understand the importance of voice communication. Many will let me call, but I get the feeling they think me a bit strange for wanting voice contact via phone!
Bob and Harley
Ben, I found your post about truth in advertising yourself very interesting and I love it when you share with us so much from your vast experiences. The guy in question had no excuse because he was a fluent writer of English: why do people do things like that and waste each other's time, not to mention the expense of buying a ticket, and the sadness in being dismissed for something you were told was an asset. But you are also right when you say that it spared you from further pain, but talk about a last minute change of heart! I think anyone who does that has quite a bit of unkindness running through them. I wonder if women are less into the physical than men. I say this because I know women, both gay and straight, who have disabled spouces or lovers, and the physical seems somewhat less important. Maybe it is the ability of many women to nurture, but then again, I know there must be nurturing men out there! But Ben, thanks so much for sharing with us your life: I love your posts and they really are always insightful, informative, and have a spirit of true kindness.
Bob and Harley
Interesting about what luvhog, aka Dave I think, says. For me, people who I have only corresponded with have done many kind things for me: read to me via phone, and helped me purchase things difficult for me to get because of a lack of help. But for there to be a true friendship, I must have actually met, touched and been with the person. Been guided by the person. That is a priority. Otherwise, we are just acquaintances, although kindness done for me by anyone is never forgotten and never taken for granted.
Bob and Harley
Thank you Scott for you e-mail: Ever since I have memory I have been attracted to men older than me, maybe over 50, in the chubby side, I guess I have been atracted to an ideal of my Dad or my friends Dad kind of thing, all my life. In my fantasies I see this white older man, with rugged looks, not athletic, but nonetheless very caring, gentle, loving, humorous, with a lot of stories to tell, and somebody that really cares about me and how I'm doing or how my day went. For many years I thought that I was crazy, because if this is what it meant to be gay, well then I was not one. I thought that if I had friends that fit that physical profile then all that attraction was going to be fulfilled and gone away. Of Course that never happened. I have no words to express the way I fell when somebody that I just meat really triggers something inside me. That's what I suppose they call chemistry. I can actually fell body changes inside me, just at the site of that person. Sometimes is scary. I'm afraid to think of what I would be able to do if somebody that I felt that way about corresponded to me the same way, I guess that would be happiness. This might sound naive to most of you but is the honest true of what I fell, and I'm discovering more as I go. I have no fellings at all for people my age or younger, and I'm really bother by men that fit what everybody else think around here that is a gay person, I'm talking really affeminate and woman kind of actitude. I like a man's man, and I am one also, I like cars, fotball, baseball, boxing, etc. It has been really difficult to realized that I'm actually a gay person that likes older people, which Ben Boxer calls the silverfox syndrome. But thanks to the Internet,web sites like this one and people like you that take the time and write, I have been able to realize who I am, and what I want. At this point in my life 37 years old, having no sexual experience with anybody that nearly fits that profile, I guess looks are not the main thing that I am after. I do fell envious of Ben, that writes of all types of encounters with all sorts of people, every where in the world.I guess it takes a special kind of person to do that. I do want only one true relationship, and I now that I can make it last. I do lead a super closet life, due to the problems that it will bring to my family if I came out, living in a Latin country , it will serve no purpose and I will gain nothing if I came out,because I don't think that there are any silverfoxes around anyways, and if there are I don't believe they will risk the fact of coming out. Until I find this special person I will hang around, reading what comes out of this list, and living and making mine everybody else's fantasies and dreams. Thank you for asking Scott
Calle
I have been reading an responding to individuals on the subject of lonliness. It is most likely more difficult for men to deal with the lonliness than women. Women tend to be more open about their feelings and are expected to talk about them. This is not always true of men. I find that on the internet I can be more open e.g. through this group since we already have something in common. As a new widower it is difficult sence people think you shoud get over it and everyone gets over it at different stages and times in their life. By being bi I have found other interests i.e. men whom I could not seek out as freely when married. I have found this helps the lonliness a great deal. I thank those who respond so I can talk to them and if time and feelings are appropriate I have met and enjoyed their company. I will have to agree with several of the comments about honesty in advertising. The body is important but the mind and the spirit of the person is more important. I enjoy getting to know the person before anything physical takes place. The better You know the individual the more enjoyable the time. Lonliness is going to affect everyone in a different way and some days will be worse than others especially when you lose a soulmate of 30 years no matter who it may be. I have known men who have lost their lovers after many years and I can empathsize with them. Til you have been there you will never know just how hard it can be. I say use what ever means that you have to meet others and continue on with your life. You can not seal yourself up or you will surely die. JT I usually don't respond to these things, but the following e-mail was kind of rough. I just have one question for ya scott, have you ever been COMPLETELY ALONE. no one. It's not so easy to think happy thoughts. Because if you haven't been alone, then you probably shouldn't make general statements that everyone can make it alone. Because some can't. I just suggest you have a little more compassion bud.
---scott wade a12c@hotmail.com wrote: I'm surprised no one has mentioned the HIV angle. If you really want to experience rejection from the "Silverfox" type of man, try being HIV+. Even in the responses to this topic there has been mention by mature men of young guys "spreading diseases". There seems to be a lot of lip service to helping "our HIV/AIDS brothers". But heaven forbid dating one. Did it ever occur to some of you that many men were infected before we knew what it was. Must we be continually punished for that? I realize that there has to be a few HIV+ Silverfoxes out there, but try finding one... I sure can't. Though it appears many younger men are comfortable having safe sex with an HIV+ man, it seems very few mature men are willing to. It appears as though too many Silverfoxes are living under the false premise that simply asking someone if he is HIV Negative is some kind of assurance he's not. I also have to include a nod to another writer mentioning that most mature men have their "specific requirements" as well. However, I'd prefer that men state their requirements if the have them. I can't count the times I've received the reply (and yes, from many men posting on this web site), "Thanks for the response, but I prefer heavy set men" or "I prefer men younger than you are", "I prefer men closer to my age", even "I prefer boyish looking, clean-shaven guys"; none of which were mentioned in the ad or profile. Gosh, excuse me for being on the muscular side, wearing a masculine beard and 47 years old. Yes, I prefer men older than me. But even just 1 or 2 years older is fine if the man is handsome and a nice guy. The same goes for men much older than myself, as well as heavy set, muscular, or trim. I can't imagine limiting myself so specifically. It's the same with the "Bear" scene: it doesn't matter how good looking you are or even if you wear a handsome beard, if you're not heavy set and hairy, you get ignored. Surprisingly, I've heard many mature men put down the "Bears" for these reasons and yet are guilty of the same kind of exclusion, just different parameters. But the bottom line is that if you will reject someone for these reasons then you should say so in the ad/profile. Since gay men put such an emphasis on sex, I'm afraid we can never get away from this "specific requirement" attitude. However, being continually told you are very good looking and yet almost always rejected or ignored by the men you find attractive is definitely one form of loneliness.
Rick
Dave, Personally I think everyone has different ideas on what is and is not attractive to them. I (for instance) love older, mature men with gray or graying hair, bald or not, rounded or not. I'm not exactly sure what completely turns me on as I have seen men that fit all my criteria and don't do a thing for me, yet I have seen others that I would think would not get me excited in the least that, after seeing them cause me to dream of them for weeks. I don't understand this but it is the way I am. I have given up trying to understand it, it is just as it is. There are lots of very attractive men on this list that I would like to get to know better. I remember a note from one very attractive man (at least to me he was very attractive) who was new to the list that was complaining of his sagging buns, and balding head but he attached his passport photo. I saved his message for weeks wanting to reply to him. However, I knew it wouldn't go anywhere as he lives on the other side of the contenent (and I figured since he was so good looking he probably was inindated with e-mails after his post). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, for me - if there is that spark of magic - its there. If its not - it just isn't. I enjoy being able to have a good conversation, but also enjoy the fruits of love. There are many men I can enjoy good conversation and the company of, but there are only a few that I could enjoy sharing bodies, and my life with. Sorry, if this offends you - but it is a fact of my life.
Take care, I find the conversation about being lonely and sexual preferences rather interesting. It really caught my attention when Rick brought up the HIV angle. I was trying to talk to my companion about this subject today and didn't get very far. He assumed I was prying into his past when I asked questions about how do you approach the subject of HIV status. He told me he never asked. Is that true of most people? Do you just assume that the other is a responsible person and would tell you his status. Do you just not talk about it? I know it is difficult to approach the subject. With all the sex going on with silverfoxes and foxhunters are all you just not asking? Do the foxes assume that the silvers are safe. And do you silvers just take chances? I have been in only one gay relationship and it lasted for twenty years. I wasn't affected by the AIDS crisis in the 80's. We were both faithful and didn't worry about it. Now I am in a new relationship and my partners attitude about HIV is in my opinion rather odd. It's kind of a don't ask don't tell thing. The first time I asked about it he said that his doctor would tell him if he thought he had a problem! What?
About requirements ... If I had a closed mind about what I thought I
wanted in a man I would have never considered my current partner. In
fact I didn't at first because of our extreme age differences. I entered
the relationship based on a friendship and a case of mutual need (not
sexual.) Suprisingly it developed into much more. I fell in love with
the man, his mind and his attitude about life. Friendship first, then if
a relationship happens wonderful. Look beyond the wrinkles and the pains
and you'll find beauty.
Dear Friends,
Such blamers likely have very little compassion, obviously have near zero
sensitivity, and certainly exhibit lousy manners. I know it's best to
ignore them, but that isn't always easy when you are hurting and their
message sounds like they don't care.
Dear Rick,
We started a very wonderful relationship and after a year he planned to move in. He moved his things. The next day, he became ill, went to the hospital, and never returned. He died at the age of 32.
I remain negative. My point was that younger guys tend to go for heavy-set men. I suspect it has to do with the image of a successful authority figure but I am not absolutely sure why this tends to be the case.
Regards
Hi Guys!
Bob
Bill, Point is--YOU JUST NEVER KNOW!!!!!!
David I could throw my laptop into the bottom of the ocean, never touch a computer again, and it could be that all the "online entities" I have ever known never existed. This terminable and mutable quality of cyberspace makes, in my experience, e-correspondence somewhat superficial. There was an old man with whom I corresponded for about two years. Last summer he learned that he was anemic and his health wasn't getting any better. I thought about him and how he fared often, but being that I never met him in person, I felt there was little I could do about it. If I had known him in person, I could have at least been there perhaps to hold and comfort him. I sent some e-mails wondering if his condition ever improved, but they were returned undeliverable because his addresses seem to have expired and I have not heard from him since. It's as if he's only a figment of my imagination, but he is not. I also want to share my thoughts on loneliness. I wonder if it is merely a state of mind or an actual state of being. I think it is not one or the other. it is both. It is a state of mind when we want it to be, i.e., when we choose to ignore it or let it affect our well-being. It is a state of being in that we as human beings, for some reason, have the need for intimacy on a level beyond the physical. Why? Here comes the philosophical part: intimacy is not something people do . it is a place. It is a familiar place where two people find themselves. Shields are dropped. Stones are melted. And the journey home is safe when the intimate is there walking by your side.
Clark Ben Boxer notes: Ralph Nader was on Bill Maher's "Politically Incorrect" last night (Tuesday). It was a lively session. He noted that the executive (Presidency), legislative (Congress) and judicial (Supreme Court) branches of the U.S. government are now controlled by only one party, and that the opposition party has displayed weakness by being overly acquiescent thus far in allowing the ruling party to have its way in all things. He considered that the only power presently resting in the people stems from clamorous criticism and civil disobedience when the public is not well served by either party. The following article suggests he may be right.
Headline:
Text: FIrst off, thanks for acknowledging this month and what it stands for. It is a month of education, but it should also be a month of tolerance. Far too often, it's more about talking about famous people and what they did. THank good, even though they are Americans and should be celebrated along with other Americans, but that is a whole 'nother issue. But let's look at what it means to be an American. Of course the obvious pops out...You live here (legally or otherwise in some cases). You take pride in the country you live in; but that's more of a matter of patriotism. WHat does it mean to be black? Science says you have to have a specific percentage of melonin in your skin. Or to be P.C. about it, African-American? You have to have a decendant that came from Africa. Well, that's would place me in an interesting catagory. A few years ago, I undertook the task of tracing my family tree. I found that my ancestors came from France. So would that make me African-Frnech-American? At any rate, tolerance is key. You have far too many people hating other people for mondane reasons and then act on their hate feeling justified. We spend far roo much time and effort seperating ourselves. It can only be the common things that we share that brings us together. Hating someone because they're black or gay or jewish or from another planet (see Janet Reno) are like hating someone because they wear blue all the time. In the end, it's only going to leave people. In times of war and peril, we join together as a unified force under one banner. In times of peace and celebration, we party, some drink scotch, some prefer moonshine, others drink 40 ozs. I would trade one day of tolerence for a month of eduaction. Why? Because tolerance can only be achived by education. A higher education. Knowing that one plus one is two will not cause you to reach an understanding so great that you realize that the only race that exists is the human race. To quote Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
Fred Mazyck
Are you in the 2% or do you represent 98% of the population ? Answer this riddle and find out..... (Note:: You Must Follow The Instructions! NO PEEKING AHEAD!) * Do the following exercise and it is guaranteed to raise an eyebrow. (( There's no trick or surprise)). * Just follow these instructions, and answer the questions one at a time and as quickly as you can! * Again, as quickly as you can but don't advance until you've done each of them ... really. * Now, scroll down (but not too fast, you might miss something). Think of a number from 1 to 10 Multiply that number by 9 If the number is a 2-digit number, add the digits together Now subtract 5 Determine which letter in the alphabet corresponds to the number you ended up with.... (example: 1=a, 2=b, 3=c, etc.) Think of a country that starts with that letter . Remember the last letter of the name of that country. Think of the name of an animal that starts with that letter Remember the last letter in the name of that animal Think of the name of a fruit that starts with that letter.. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Are you thinking of a Kangaroo in Denmark eating an Orange...???? If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose minds are different enough to think of something else. 98% of people will answer with kangaroos in Denmark when given this exercise.
Freaky, huh? I was thinking about a ibex in Djibouti, but the closest thing to "I" would be a Jackfruit. But then I started thinking about an Antelope in Dominica, looking at an Evergreen blackberry, wondering whether it was poisonous.
Then I finally settled on a Cat in the Dominican Republic, eating a tomato.
i had this strange urge to be thinking of a doe in
deutschland eating an eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?
Why e-mail is like a penis -- #11. Those who have it would be devastated if it was ever cut off. #10. Those who have it think that those who don't are somehow inferior. #9. Those who don't have it may agree that it's neat, but think it's not worth the fuss that those who have it make about it. #8. Many of those who don't have it would like to try it, a phenomenon psychologists call E-mail Envy. #7. It's more fun when it's up, but this makes it hard to get any real work done. #6. In the distant past, its only purpose was to transmit information vital to the survival of the species. Some people still think that's the only thing it should be used for, but most folks today use it mostly for fun. #5. If you don't take proper precautions, it can spread viruses. #4. If you use it too much you'll find it becomes more and more difficult to think coherently. #3. We attach an importance to it that is far greater than its actual size and influence warrant. #2. If you're not careful what you do with it, it can get you into a lot of trouble.
And the #1 reason:
You may be a redneck pilot if... Your stall warning plays Dixie; Your cross country flight plan uses flea markets as check points; You think sectional charts should show trailer parks; You've thought of using moonshine as avgas; You have mud flaps on your wheel pants; Your toothpick keeps poking your mike; You've thought about just taxiing around the airport drinking beer; You wouldn't be caught dead in a Grumman "Yankee"; You use a Purina feed sack for a wind sock; The side of your airplane has a sign advertising your septic tank service; You constantly confuse Beechcraft with Beechnut; You think GPS stands for Going Perfectly Straight; You refer to flying in formation as "We've got us a convoy"; Your matched set of luggage is 3 grocery sacks from Piggly Wiggly; You've got a gun rack hanging on the passenger window; You have more than one roll of duct tape holding your cowling together; Your preflight includes removing all the clover, grass and wheat from the landing gear; You figure the weight of mud and manure on your airplane into the CG calculations; You siphon gas out of your tractor to put in your airplane; You've never really actually landed at an airport, although you've been flying for years; You consider anything above 100 feet AGL as "High Altitude"; There are parts on your airplane labeled "John Deere"; You answer all calls from female controllers with "That's a big ten-four, little Darlin'."; There's exhaust residue on the right side of your aircraft and tobacco stains on the left; You have to buzz the strip to chase off all the sheep and goats; You use your parachute to cover your plane; You've landed on the main street of your town for a cup of coffee; You fly to family reunions to meet girls; The tread pattern on your main gear tires doesn't match; You have fuzzy dice hanging from the magnetic compass; You have a bale of hay and a hound in the baggage compartment; Your instructor's day job was at the community sale barn; You've got matching bumper stickers on your vertical fin; There are grass stains on your propeller tips; There is a brown-stained styrofoam cup strategically stored in the glove box; The FAA still thinks your mailing address is your parent's house; You think ZULU time means something to do with Africa; Your hangar collapses and more than four dogs are injured; Your airplane has a sticker that says, "I'd rather be fishing."; You navigate with your ADF tuned to country music stations; You think "Ultralite" is a new beer from Budweiser; Just before impact, you are heard saying "Hey, y'all, watch this."
****
Martin is having a tough time in Las Vegas. Eventually, he gambles away all of his money and has to borrow a quarter from another gambler, just to use the men's room. He finds a stall that happens to be open and pockets the quarter. Believing that his luck has finally changed, he puts the quarter in a slot machine and hits the jackpot. He takes his winnings and goes to the blackjack table and turns his modest winnings into a million dollars. Soon, with a little smart money management, Martin is wealthy beyond his wildest dreams, and goes on the lecture circuit, where he tells his incredible story. At the end of every lecture he tells his audiences that he will always be grateful to his benefactor, and if he ever finds the man he will share his fortune with him. After months of speaking, a man in the audience jumps up and says, "I'm that man. I was the one who gave you the quarter." Martin peers at him from the stage and says, "Yes, I remember you, but you aren't the one I'm looking for. I was talking about the guy who left the stall door open!"
**** Marie & Boudreaux live across de bayou from Clarence who he doan like at all. Dey all de time yell across de bayou at each other. Boudreaux would yell to Clarence, "If I had a way to cross dis bayou I'd come over dere an pass my fis by you jaw good, yeah!" Dis went on for years. Finally de state done built a bridge across dat bayou right by dere houses and Boudreaux's wife Marie say, "Now is you chance Boudreaux. Why don you go over dere an beat up Clarence lak you say?"
Boudreaux say "ok" and start across de bridge
but he see a sign on de bridge on he stop to read
it and then he go back home. Marie say, "Why you
back so soon?" and Boudreaux say "Mais Marie I
don change my mind about beat up Clarence.
You know Marie dey got a sign on dat bridge what
say Clarence 13' 6". You know, he doan look near
dat big when I yell at him from across de bayou...!"
End of silverfoxesclub-digest V1 #133/4
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