Fant!
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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:49:58 -0500
From: "luvhog"

Subject: Re: The four stages of life

Ben, Your four stages of life reminded me of what my father once said were the three ages of man.

1. youth
2. Middle age
3. Gee you look good.

Hehe, Ben, you're looking great.

Dave
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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:32:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Edward

Subject: RE: The four stages of life

Well, I can say that I have experienced numbers three and four, but am still looking for a full time Santa Claus!!

In a Santa Claus hunting mood, hehe.

This is what happens to someone after experiencing a hetro bachelor party yesterday night. At least I know that I am most definitely gay!!!

Edward
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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:49:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "e.a.n red"

Subject: Re: "Queer As Folk" debuts tonight on Showtime

I hope that you all enjoy watching "Queer as Folk" as much as we all did in the UK also look out for series 2. It's a blast!
regards Ed in Scotland
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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:14:27 -0800
From: "Ben Boxer"

Subject: David and Jonathan

Ben Boxer says: I have been associated with various Christian groups in my speckled past in assorted countries, as well as with other religions. Believe it or not, I was a "boy wonder" preacher at the age of 17 and had my own log church in the woods of Northern Virginia. I am descended from several Baptist ministers and religious writers. Long ago, far away.

I tell you this to explain my lifelong exposure to the Christian Bible, having read it through at least three times and having spent years of my life studying and being instructed in its parts from a variety of points of view, including that of a yogi in India. I do not consider myself a Christian per se, nor do I think of myself as an authority on its tenets, etc., but I gaze with interest and awe on the machinations of those who call themselves Christians in trying to convince the world that we are vermin in the eyes of their deity, for whom they presume to speak.

I ran across a fascinating article this weekend about recognizable gay relationships in the Bible, of which there are three among prominent characters: Naomi and Ruth, David and Jonathan, Daniel and Ashpenaz. The ones who fascinated me most in childhood were David and Jonathan. I was transported, bowled over, by the realization after my sexual enlightenment at the age of 12 that they had been lovers.

David, of course, is held up to all Christians as a great example of the most beloved of God who was at the same time a conniving murderer and a shameless adulterer, forgiven for same, but was not ever, God forbid, a fag!

Biblical scholars tried to convince me in later years that I was wrong about those two, but I never believed their claims to the contrary, and now I know that I saw it rightly then as I see it rightly now. I am reproducing below a portion of an article dealing with the three known biblical relationships, namely, the part about the King of Israel and his homosexually beloved man.

David and Jonathan

Passages in 1 Samuel & 2 Samuel describe, among other events, an extremely close bond between David and Jonathan. Jonathan was the son of King Saul, and next in line for the throne. But Samuel anointed David to be the next king. This produced a strong conflict in the mind of Saul.

Interpretation:

CT (Conservative Christian theologians): They view the friendship of David and Jonathan as totally non-sexual. It is inconceivable that God would allow a famous king of Israel to be a homosexual.

LT (Liberal Christian theologians): Some seriously consider that David and Jonathan had a consensual homosexual relationship - in many ways, a prototype of many of today's gay partnerships. Some important verses which describe their relationship are:

1 Samuel 18:1

"...Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself." (NIV)

or

"...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV)

Most translations use the term "soul" rather than "spirit" to describe the bond. They speak of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit", etc. Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and emotionally.

1 Samuel 18:2

"From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house." (NIV)

David left his parent's home and moved to Saul's where he would be with Jonathan. This is a strong indication that the relationship was extremely close.

1 Samuel 18:3-4

"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV)

Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was physical.

1 Samuel 18:20-21

"Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 'I will give her to him', he thought, 'so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him'. Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law" (NIV)

In the King James Version, the end of Verse 21 reads:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV)

Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain."

In modern English, this might be written: "Today, you are son-in-law with two of my children" That would refer to both his son Jonathan and his daughter Michal. The Hebrew original would appear to recognize David and Jonathan's homosexual relationship as equivalent to David and Michal's heterosexual marriage. Saul may have approved or disapproved of the same-sex relationship; but at least he appears to have recognized it. The KJV highlight their re-writing of the Hebrew original by placing the three words in italics; the NIV translation is clearly deceptive.

1 Samuel 20:41

"After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most." (NIV)

Other translations have a different ending to the verse:

"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded." (KJV)

"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David got control of himself." (Amplified Bible)

"and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more." (Living Bible)

"They kissed each other and wept together until David got control of himself." (Modern Language)

"They kissed each other and wept aloud together." (New American Bible)

"Then David and Jonathan kissed each other. They cried together, but David cried the most." (New Century Version)

"Then the kissed one another and shed tears together, until David's grief was even greater than Jonathan's." (Revised English Bible)

"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself." (Revised Standard Version)

The translators of the Living Bible apparently could not handle the thought of two adult men kissing, so they simply said the two shook hands! This is somewhat less than honest. The original Hebrew text says that they kissed each other and wept together until David became large; i.e. had an erection. Again, the thoughts of David becoming sexually aroused after kissing Jonathan is too threatening for Bible translators, so they either ignored the ending entirely or created one of their own.

2 Samuel 1:26

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."

In the society of ancient Israel, it was not considered proper for a man and woman to have a platonic relationship. Men and women rarely spoke to each other in public. Since David's only relationships with women would have been sexual in nature, then he must be referring to sexual love here. It would not make sense in this verse to compare platonic love for a man with sexual love for a woman; they are two completely different phenomenon. It would appear that David is referring to his sexual love for Jonathan.

(Ben Boxer notes: 1 Samuel 20:30, KJV, states, "Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?" The "son of Jesse" is a reference to David.

Saul's statement convinces me that even he, Jonathan's father, recognized the gay relationship between the two young men. I must conclude, therefore, that homosexual relationships, being a part of biblical lore, are recognized by the deity whom Christians claim wrote their Bible. How the deity may judge his own creation is another matter, but suffice it to say that he whom the deity is considered to have loved above others was, at some point in life, gay.)
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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:15:54 -0800
From: "Ben Boxer"

Subject: Option

The list has been busy this weekend, with quite a few postings, as well as the usual pix. I know that some of you are sweating out the volume. A couple have asked for an option, and I have used it for them.

By transferring to the digest version, you get only one e-mail per day from the list, sent out at about 10:00 a.m. U.S.A Pacific Coast time. It contains no pix, which have been stripped out at the server.

The digest includes the username and the password at the beginning, including the most recent changes, so you can open it and check them out before deleting if you don't have time to read.

I upload an edited version of the digest to the Web every day, so you can also read it there. I do that because QueerNet (the list host) does not have a NO MAIL setting, which means you can subscribe and not get any mail, but can read the postings on the Web. This is my answer to that. However, the Image Archive username and password, with frequent changes, are NOT on the Web, for obvious reasons.

Therefore, you MUST take one or the other (regular or digest) of the list to partake of its advantages, to wit: enjoying the stored pictures (updated monthly), many of which have appeared on the list in the past, but many of which have not, and placing your profile on the Web for guys to see and maybe choose you as a target for love, friendship, fucking, you name it.

Thousands upon thousands of men cruise through the Silverfoxes Clubhouse looking at everything it offers -- personal ads, profiles, nude pictorials, audio sex stories, the library, the message board (Boxer's Ring), the links, etc. It's a good place for you to be. www.benboxer.com

So if the list is just too much mail for you, change to the digest. One mailing, once a day. If that's STILL too much, well....enough said.
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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:46:13 -0800
From: "Ben Boxer"

Subject: I saw "Queer As Folk"

I saw "Queer As Folk." Maybe you did, too. Let us know what you thought of it. I enjoyed it. There was not, however, a silverfox in sight, and there may not be during the whole 22-hour series on Showtime. That doesn't bother me. Let us remain a well-kept secret. But let these pretty boys on "Queer As Folk" hang it all out the way they are -- pulling no punches and behaving like the man-lovers they are without thought of apology to anyone. I won't go into the storyline. You can read about it everywhere by now. But I liked the lines, the scenery, the no-holds-barred fuck scenes, and the acting. I felt something I seldom feel when watching straight TV -- normal, as if I were watching something real to me instead of some alien creature's reality. I have known people like those in the story, loved some of them, and liked all of them. My judgment on "Queer As Folk" is "good stuff"!

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End of silverfoxesclub-digest V1 #65
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