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Silverfoxesclub-digest
Sunday, April 01 2001
Volume 01 : Number 192/3

In this issue:

-Fellatio Course - Lesson 14
-Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion (60)

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From: "George of Boston" bostbill@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Fellatio Course - Lesson 14

LESSON FOURTEEN: Not for Beginners or Strangers - 69.

Sixty nine is not always the perfect way to provide your partner oral satisfaction. Inadvertently one of you will "let up" your end of the cocksucking in order to experience the subtle pleasures the other partner is giving you. Many people think that the deep throat technique is the ultimate pleasure you can give your partner. Actually I believe that sixty-nine is the ultimate pleasure. [Editor's note: Your editor does not agree with this assertion, for the reason stated in the second sentence above.]

Done correctly and unselfishly when both of you are completely in tune with each others innermost desires, the sixty nine is the ultimate. But because of the problem mentioned earlier in this lesson, most people practice it too early and it becomes an intensely satisfying experience for one partner at the expense of the other. When you are completely on each other's wavelength you will discover that this is the most effective way of giving as well as receiving pleasure.

The element that must be in place is simple: Both of you must be consummate cocksuckers! If you have a partner who is not in the least interested in giving head and only likes to receive it then to attempt sixty-nine is to ask for unhappiness in your relationship.

Next - Fellatio Lesson 15.
Advanced Techniques

Return to Table of Contents to continue lessons.

George of Boston (Boston Bill)
http://bostbill.home.netcom.com
------------------------------
From: "luvhog" luvhog@ameritech.net
Subject: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

If you're the type of user who regularly tinkers in his Windows file, you know what a pain it is navigating to the Windows folder via the mouse. Well, using the Run dialog box, there's a lightning-fast way to open the Windows folder. Go to Start, Run. Type .. (that's two periods) in the Open box and click OK. The Windows folder pops open for you instantly.
------------------------------
From: "[SGMS]" sgms@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

From: "Heimy Gorovitz" .....Think it all goes back to those lazy crazy days of DOS.

GRS replies:
Well, I can't let that go through without rising to it ;o) Apart from the catastrophic version 4, MS-DOS was the most stable and versatile operating system ever produced by Microsoft, the epitome being version 5 IMO. Things started going downhill with Windows 3, they got a bit better with Windows 3.1, and then they coughed up Window 95 which was (understandably) the laughing stock of Mac communities. We thought MS was on the road to recovery with Windows 98, and in particular 98SE, but then they produced Windows ME.

Apart from the fact that I started using computers even before MS-DOS was invented and therefore "grew up" with the command line processor, there are still things which *can't* be done using Windows' graphic interface. There is no equivalent of NT's partition manager in Windows 9x, so you *have* to resort to the command line to set up your hard disk partitions. You can't redirect file input/output unless you use the command line. Which is the fastest way of moving all your .gif files from one directory to another: sorting, scrolling, selecting, getting it wrong, trying again, trying to get the destination window visible and dropping the files on that window or pasting them in only to find it was the wrong directory, or issuing a command like "move *.gif c:\giffiles" on the command line?

The bottom line is that you can't get a good understanding of Windows' file managing capabilities unless you have a good understanding of "those lazy crazy days of DOS" - mainly because Windows' GUI still relies on the good old DOS functions embedded in a hidden file called "IO.SYS" loaded when your machine starts. Both DOS and Windows have worked this way ever since 1981 when Tim Paterson developed QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System), which was to become MS-DOS 1.

The command line interface is still something extremely useful, even today, and is one of the reasons why I wouldn't be caught dead using Windows ME. Apart from ME's inherent instability, MicroSux have gone to great lengths to render the command line *inaccessible* to the user.

Call me old-fashioned if you like, but I don't see why I should go with the tide and change my tools if the new tools don't allow me to work as efficiently as the old tools did.

GRS
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

Why go to all that work when a single . will do?
------------------------------
From: RogueKC@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

As a fellow who got his BFAs in Graphic Design/Painting/English, computers were absolutely foreign to me, and something I hoped I'd never have to deal with. After graduation, I quickly became aware that they were a monster that I would have to at least become friends with. I soon learned that not only would I need a good understanding of how they worked, but that I would be spending my entire day in front of, because my industry, within a two-year period, converted almost completely to desktop, as opposed to drafting table.

Given that everybody in my field automatically chose Macs at that time as the machine of choice, that is naturally what I taught myself on, and purchased. I am still thankful that this was somewhat foisted on me. I am so incredibly right-brained that I still believe trying to figure out Windows (and DOS) would choke me very quickly. Thankfully, I've figured out enough about PCs that I can navigate around, but systems have become SO complicated in recent years, I truly do not understand how most folks are able to keep abreast at all. Truly.

Even with the Mac OS, which I've been using for fifteen years, and have served as department director for, etc., I absolutely can no longer keep up. So many necessary extensions, CDev's, parsing/decoding/converting software, browsing extensions, file converters and so much more in order to accept and experience everything that comes from so many different operating systems, it is practically IMPOSSIBLE (except for the most incredibly savvy, dare I say "geeks" (and I mean that in the most kind sense) like sgms, that most folks are simply overwhelmed... Many, in fact, just give up in frustration.

I've been involved with the Mac OS and all of it's ins-and-outs since the very beginning... and it is FAR simpler than any Windows OS... and let me tell you, STILL no piece of cake! Some days I want to throw all of these damn things in the garbage and move to a tropical island where I can just FISH for a damn living!

So I feel great sympathy for those folks just starting out and having difficulty figuring out what to put where, how to attach particular images, where to store files, how to sort them, etc... It is truly learning an entirely different language, and probably the most difficult language to learn that there is!

So... KUDOS to all you fellows who are new or just starting out, and I say PLEASE don't feel inadequate that you often find it difficult. EVERYONE does... You are not alone.

Nonetheless, we are in a century that demands it of us, so we keep plugging away. I say keep asking questions, and don't ever feel like they are "dumb" questions... We learn by asking those in the know. Thank you to folks like sgms for being so helpful.

Terry in KC
------------------------------
From: "Tonka" tonka41@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

Terry in KC said (snip) "So... KUDOS to all you fellows who are new or just starting out, and I say PLEASE don't feel inadequate that you often find it difficult. EVERYONE does... You are not alone.

Nonetheless, we are in a century that demands it of us, so we keep plugging away. I say keep asking questions, and don't ever feel like they are "dumb" questions... We learn by asking those in the know. Thank you to folks like sgms for being so helpful."

I have too say Terry, What a brilliant response, I bought my first computer when i was 14 (with my paper round money), from then on i always updated too the next best thing but they were only used for playing games on. When i left England at the tender age ov 19/20 i didn't go near a computer again until almost 2 years ago.

I did what you suggested and asked about everything, now i'm getting good at it but it was only because i asked all the time, and its amazing how many people on the net are willing to help.

I'm now at the stage that i can build my webpage with HTML coding and not a web building programme, but thats only because people have taught me how to do it, and most ov my site was built for me but i had too learn how too use the templates etc too make new pages.

Your advice too people who are new at this was very good dude, a lot of people are SCARED to ask incase of ridicule, but i never got that when i was asking the most basic of basic ov questions.

Good on you Terry
Tonka
------------------------------
From: "T Pitcock" tomw.pit@verizon.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

Hi Terry and the group,
I am also a graphic designer and a Mac man. For the past fifteen years I have struggled to keep up with the changing technology. It is complicated to say the least. I have a friend who is 86 and just starting to work with a computer. The biggest obstacle is FEAR of the unknown. He is on the west coast and I am on the east coast. Talking him through each obstacle is a trip. The only thing that I am thankful for is that I started on Macs. When they work the bugs out of the new OSX it should be the most stable operating system ever ... at least that is what I have heard. Anymore Mac guys on the list?

Tom
------------------------------
From: "Brian Jennings" battenkill@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

I'm on my 5th or 6th Mac. I use the new G4 laptop and a 533/G4 at home. You couldn't pay me to use a PC.
Brian
------------------------------
From: BEARHuntr4@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

I am on the MAC
------------------------------
From: EArmstrong@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

Hi Tom --
Another Mac guy here. About a year ago I bought an iMac (grape), and I love it. Wouldn't have any other OS! I've been using Macs for almost 20 years. I had one of the very first ones (after the Lisa). I also have an older Performa 600, but it's pretty slow and cumbersome by comparison. Maybe we can exchange info re Macs.

Good to hear from you.
Ethan in LA
------------------------------
From: Fhfwa@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

I'm on my 5th or 6th Mac. I'm using a 534/G4 . You couldn't pay me to use a PC. Had one didn't like it.

Frank
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From: "David Cantu" dcantu@intersatx.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

Ha' 5th or 6th Mac?

I've only owned 2 PCs in my entire life, started out with a P90 and presently custom built my own Pentium III 600..I hate the thought of buying a computer only to not be able to upgrade as I wish--

I don't have any complaints other than Mac users thinking they're 'all that'...

David
------------------------------
From: g4jke@ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC Discussion

Dear List,
I'm intrigued by all this MAC talk, I'd like to try a comparison sometime.

I've still kept my "old" Dell computer, Pentium 11 mmx, 233 MHz, 4.3 GBy is it feasible to convert this to MAC? Any comments please,

Derek
------------------------------
From: EArmstrong@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC is it feasible to convert this to MAC? Any comments please, Derek

No, unfortunately it can't be done. What you have to do is convert. Forgive me for saying this, friend -- a Pentium, no matter what size or shape, is a Chevy. A Mac is a Rolls. That's not only my opinion. Do you realize that the guys who write programs or columns for an IBM, and are equally familiar with both, when they're through for the day, go home to their Macs? You don't have to take my word for it. It's easy enough to find out, if you do a little checking. Yeah, it's true -- I'm a little bit partial !

Ethan in LA
------------------------------
From: brian jennings battenkill@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

I'm sure Ethan would confirm this but....;

Macs are made for oldermen and their admirers while PC are made for heterosexual people.

Hence he ergonomic beauty of the Mac and the awkward keyboard layout of the PC.

Brian
------------------------------
From: brian jennings Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC David
Why the surprise? The original Mac came out in 1984. In these days of faster computers six computers in seventeen years is not really very extraordinary.

In the PC world I think the processor was a 8088 with the MS-DOS operating system in 84. I don't know what a P90 is but it the P stands for Pentium that dates the machine to within a few years. After all there was the 486, 386 and the 286 prior to the 586(pentium.)

My days of computing started out on a VAX-11 750. As an option you could buy the $50,000 hard drive. It held a whopping 500meg. Times have changed since 1982.

Brian
------------------------------
From: "Pewit" pewit@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

While I applaud all those who have taken the plunge to join the "wired" society - and I have helped a number of seniors to do that. The one thing that I am fully aware of is that in the future you won't have to bother.

There are already devices (e.g. Web TV) that can give you access to the Internet without the steep learning curve and these devices are going to become even more proliferate in the future and easier to use.

80% of computer users use less than 20% of the functionality and for them the grey box that hums in the corner of the room is a complete waste of space.

Personally I want a single device the size of my Palm Pilot that combines the functions of the Palm with my mobile phone, a GPS device, high-speed internet access and a secure payment system - the technology exists now - all it needs is some innovation and a slow-down in PC sales.

Hmm - anyone looked at the stock prices of PC manufacturers recently :-)

Pewit Editor of The Gray Gay Guide
The online guide to places for mature gay men and their admirers
------------------------------
From: RogueKC@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Another interesting side note is that the Mac G4 is the first computer that private citizens can purchase which meets the federal government's guidelines to actually be referred to as a "Super Computer". The one's being sold now operate at 750 MHz, and with dual processors, that's an (ideal) operating speed of 1500 MHz... Unimaginable even a year ago, since most folks were GIDDY with 233 MHz. (At least to private industry.)

Certainly, for a lot of people, that is just overkill, and not worth the considerable outlay of cash. But for folks who do extensive graphics work, it's really the only choice they have... and for those same folks, probably worth every penny.

That's pretty telling too, I think.
------------------------------
From: g4jke@ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Thanks for your opinion, I kinda guessed a comparison wouldn't have been easy. My newer computer is a self assembly based on AMD-6, 450 MHz 15GBy hard drive segmented into 5 drives, is suppose that I couldn't put MAC onto one of those because of the control functioning of drive "C"

Thanks again for dialogue, Derek
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Ahhhhh,
I think the list is having a MAC Attack! Now don't get me wrong, I like Macs - they are a nice toy, and great for Word Processing, and other WYSIWYG stuff (ahead of their time as far as that goes). But in the day of the information highway - can you really turn one in to a good web server?

I think you're helping to scare the Mac users away from ever really getting to know a PC. I've been using PCs since MS/IBM DOS 3.0, and around computers all my life (Silly Con Valley raised don't ya know (remember the VIC 20? (DOS 1.0), and then the whopping 64k Commodore that could run the coolest games). I'm cheap so I could never really afford myself the luxury of a MAC (and you can get so much more of a PC for the buck than you can get from Apple).

I too frequent the command line from Windows - usually because I can't remember what to do in Windows to make the machine do what I want. I stick with Windows 98 because I understand that ME is not nearly as stable and 98 is a big improvement over 95 (which you realize they broke because people wouldn't have bought it back then if they had to buy all new hardware to run it - I think they made the kernel run with 2mb RAM if I remember right). I also run 2000 which gets rid of that old DOS 640k limitation so you don't have to deal with the blue screen of death as often (And you Mac users can't tell me your machines never wedge - I know different - I've seen it - and what do you do to fix it? More $$$$). I don't think that any version of Windows has tried to hide the command line from us. They always seem to try and build in some way to access COMMAND.COM in a window - but you really don't need it as much as you may think.

At first when I started with Windows, I still thought it was DOS with this flowery stuff. I tried using it as DOS. You can't do that. Windows is Windows. You want to copy all your .GIF files to another directory (excuse me - folder), and say that they are mixed in with a lot of files of different types - In Explorer just click on the type column to sort em, click on the first file you want, hold down shift and click on the last file you want (everything in between is pre-selected). Then just drag them over to the folder you want. If you use the right mouse button when you drag them you even get choices whether you want to copy, move, or whatever. No big deal. No remembering long drawn out paths to who knows where (that if you get one character wrong you've got to redo (not that F2, F3, Doskey and stuff like that there aren't helpful for retyping DOS commands)).

And as far as needing "partition manager" for Windows 9x - you don't. FDISK works just fine. If your adding a lot of drives, or doing a lot of repartitioning you could create an ICON for it, or just run it from the Start->Run menu. Or really, get a good program like partition magic - but you don't have to worry bout' NTFS with Windows 9x. And partition manager ain't that great either.

Windows has created the gateway to a lot of neat stuff like Plug and Play (I don't like the PNP acronym), which is a wonderful addition to the PC. I remember trying to clear addressing/IRQ conflicts by rearranging jumper settings (you think all is working well, you put it together, find a problem, take it apart, etc., etc., ...) Now, if your BIOS supports it, it lets Windows configure all the addressing. And if you have a legacy device (some old modem your still fond of for some unknown reason), you can hard code resources to whatever you want. Windows always takes those addresses in consideration before it configures your Plug and Play stuff.

Well, this is getting entirely too long - much longer than I wanted - and I could go on and on (already have) but I did want to get the point across that even though the new technology may be different - we need to use it as it was intended to get a true feeling of what it is about. Without Windows the internet would be UNIX (besides I believe that Gates stole a lot of the Mosaic code from X11 to write "his version" of Windows) - and where would that leave all those MAC users out there (ls this, ftp that)!

If you made it this far, thanks for your patience. I hope I added some insight (any geeks out there that see I need correcting feel free to do so) to the wonderful world of Windows. Windows can be fun (even my sister has switch from being an exclusive MAC user and "who would ever want a PC" to a dedicated Windows user - her work made her make the change) so really give it a complete try - not with the idea that it is a MAC or DOS replacement - but that it IS a Windows machine and you have to learn to use it as such.

Good night for now,
Paul
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Geeeeeezzzzzz, like I couldn't tell. Must be nice to be able to afford a Rolls - I gotta live on my Chevy salary!

Paul
------------------------------
From: "Pewit" pewit@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

A Mac is not a Rolls - it's a nice OS in a nice looking box that doesn't often get used for mission-critical applications (but neither do PCs - that's Sun's market) - not to say that there's anything wrong with, that but keep it in perspective.

I have spend many years in the development tools market talking to and working with developers. While Macs are fine I think it's ludicrous to suggest that PC programmers all have Macs at home. Not many are familiar with both - only possibly those over 30 who were weaned on both OS. Developers generally don't develop for the Mac because of the size of the potential market, and this restricts the choice of Mac software.

Try positing a message on one of the developer newsgroups and see what response you get.

Regards
Pewit
------------------------------
From: tomwpit tomw.pit@verizon.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Yes, we are Macmen and we are proud.

Stand up and shout ... We are here, we are (Queer) Macmen, get used to it!

Tom
------------------------------
From: bishinik@uswest.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

I don't know but it sounds like there is a bunch of computer size queens out there. Web TV rules

The Desert Rose
------------------------------
From: RogueKC@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

For the record, you describe about an eight-or-nine step process to MOVE a .gif file on a pc, and that doesn't even address OPENING the file. On a Mac, you simply double-click the file and it's open. PC is easier?? Uhhmm..

Also, if you get a blank or blue screen on a PC, it seems that you have to deal with significant code... What beginner has a clue as to what that code is to be, or even where to begin? The good thing for the PC user is that there are thousands of PC users out there who can help them get through it.

On a Mac, if you get the famous blue-screen sad Man, you simple re-start with the shift key down, and all the extensions are off when you re-boot, and you find the problem from there. I'm certainly not saying that it's easy to figure out... That was the message of my first post. It's not. It's too complicated, and needs to be made easier.

But your message certainly does not seem to suggest that it's any easier than what I've known, I was lost in the first paragraph.

I guess we're all comfortable with what we know, and that probably will not change.

pauln1@hotmail.com writes:
I think the list is having a MAC Attack!....

------------------------------
From: Leslie Wellington-Garrett blackie2@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Just a Light note.

I have always been an Apple user,simply because when I decided to buy my first computer.I was advised that it was Mac or nothing. It was a classic.

I now have an Imac 8.5.1 and its Lime,which I thought appropriate as I am a Limey, seeing that I am in the UK. At least we don't get the many virises directed mainly at PC Users.

I guess its a question of what makes you happy.

To go to a PC would mean relearning.And at 79 that is not a good idea. + I am as happy with my Imac as I'll ever be.

Note to Pewit go on BTAnytime its a good buy.

Hugs
lesliexx
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From: "NYSBear" yammie1@netzero.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

If you want a good stable network reliable OS then go with Linux....On an Intel Platform.

NYSBear
------------------------------
From: "[SGMS]" sgms@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

| Dear List,
| I'm intrigued by all this MAC talk, I'd like to try a | comparison sometime.

Been there, done that. I used to work in desktop publishing where the Mac is (unfortunately) king. Details below.

| I've still kept my "old" Dell computer, Pentium 11 mmx, 233 MHz, 4.3 GBy | is it feasible to convert this to MAC? Any comments please,

You can't convert a PC to Mac, just as you can't convert a Mac to PC. They are both totally different machines. You can't convert a freezer to a video recorder! However, there are emulators available, which are pieces of software that make one machine behave like another. Interestingly enough, there are PC emulators on Mac machines, but I have yet to see a Mac emulator on a PC.

Ever since the advent of the PowerPC chip used in the new generation of PowerMac machines about 6 or 7 years ago, Macintosh computers have been built around what's known as RISC processors (Reduced Instruction Set Chip). They know how to do fewer basic operations than CISC machines (Complex Instruction Set Chip) like PC's but they do what they do extremely fast.

Processors know how to do basic calculations on two types of numbers: integers and floating point numbers. Integers are "whole" numbers, positive or negative, like -100, 5, 25478 etc... Floating point numbers are decimal numbers like 3.1415927, -0.36589 etc... RISC processors work faster on integers than CISC processors, there's no doubt about that. Life is not, however, made up of nothing but integers, floating point calculations also have to be made, and this is where CISC machines come back into the limlelight.

I have a graphics package called POV-Ray (available at www.povray.org) which renders 3D graphics. The program is available for several platforms including Mac and Windows (there are also Linux, DOS and Amiga versions, probably others too). I decided to use it to test the floating point performance of a new Mac G3 we'd just received at my lab and compare those performances with an *ancient* PC - just to rub salt into Apple's wounds ;o).

The PC which I brought to the lab specially for the occasion was my trusty old home-made Pentium-133 with 96 Mb of RAM and a relatively slow 4.3Gb hard drive, running Windows 95B. The Mac was a brand spanking new G3-266 with 192 Mb of RAM and a fast Ultra DMA hard drive, running MacOS 8. So, the Mac has a faster hard drive, twice as much memory, a processor which runs twice as fast, and a more recent operating system. No contest....

I then fed the same scene file into the Windows version and the Mac version of POV-Ray. It was a complex scene with lots of reflection and refraction (glass balls and mirrors and the like), but the PC got through it in a little under 5 hours. 24 hours later I needed the Mac for work, so I stopped the calculations. The scene wasn't far off fully rendered and would have completed in something like 28 hours all in all. That is still nearly 6 times slower than a PC, on a machine which should be faster!

Furthermore, the Mac version was what's knows as a "fat" application because it encapsulates code for both the old 680x0 chips and the newer PowerPC chips. Badly adapted code is therefore *not* an excuse for the slowness. Not only that, but the Windows version I used was optimised for the Pentium-II chip, not for the Pentium - in other words, the PC was running a version not optimised for it and would have been even faster had I had a Pentium-optimised version.

Apple are always the first to introduce machines with processors which break through psychological speed barriers. The G4, for example, was the first chip to break the 500MHz barrier, long before the Pentium-III, and the first to break the 1GHz barrier just before the AMD Athlon. The shine on this leading edge is quickly tarnished when you sit back and think about the fact that they're using RISC processors and therefore *need* that speed to be able to compete with supposedly slower CISC machines.

The bottom line is that you should choose a machine according to what you want to do with it. If you just want to do what most people do with their computers - surf the net, use e-mail and do a bit of word processing - then I have to admit that a Mac and a PC will both do the job equally well, although a basic iMac will cost you a bit more than a high-spec PC. If you want to do graphics work then a desktop Mac with plenty of RAM (at least 256 Mb) and a large hard drive is what you'll want. If you want to do anything which involves any kind of complex calculation or file and database management, then a PC is what you'll want. If you just want a file server then a Linux system running Samba is what you chould choose rather than a Windows system.

Hope this clarifies a few points.
GRS
------------------------------
From: ypvs@freeuk.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

The PC versus Mac is an old and rather irrelevant debate these days. Especially when someone brings up the 'Is a Mac better than the PC?' question for the umpteenth time. Absolutely guaranteed to get many MAC users standing on their soapboxes telling the world to forsake PC's for the machine with the half eaten apple logo.

Both computers have their plus and minus points over each other, but on a pound for pound, dollar for dollar basis I doubt if there is much separting them in terms of performance. In fact, until the iMac (isn't that a hair removal cream?!!!!!!) came out I would suspect on a comparison for value a PC would be the faster performer.

I seriously doubt if most computer users would be able to tell the difference in speed between a Mac or a PC of equivalent processor Mhz running the same program. Does any one really mind if Adobe Photoshop runs a few milliseconds quicker on a Mac than a PC?

At the end of the day both machines have good and bad points. The PC has an enormous market share, has ease of upgrading and can run just about anything written for it since the dawn of the very first IBM PC. It also has a huge availability of peripherals and software at very reasonable prices because of the huge market share. Plus a wealth of knowledge and expertise available from just about anywhere.

The Mac in comparison is slightly faster, has a more user friendly operating system and has a dedicated band of enthusiasts. But in comparison to a PC it has no-where near the same level of software or hardware availability, nor the same competitive pricing. Neither does it have the same level of universal usage.

Plus it is worth as well mentioning that whereas once companies like Adobe used to develop Photoshop for the Mac first, it is now developed for the PC first. And back to back they operate almost identically.

Certainly with the quote about 'a Mac being a Rolls and a PC being a Chevy' shows that half of the debate is down to exclusiveness. But in an every day situation a Rolls will perform little better than a Chevy. Just the same way as a Ferarri is no better performing than a Ford in a built up traffic.

I'm sure I read somewhere that 90% of the worlds personal computers use Windows, therefore they must be PC based. Surely that many computer users can't be wrong? And if the Mac is so much better how come everyone hasn't switched?

Remember as well, that whatever computer we use we all end up at the same place i.e. this mailing list. Just like a Rolls and Chevy have a primary purpose to get from point A to point B, our computers have a purpose to start a job and then complete it. As long as they do that in a way that is acceptable to the user, does it really matter which machine is used?

The statement about cock sizes springs to mind - 'It's not how big it is, it's how you use it that matters....'

So rather than debating and belittling each other for our choice of machines, why don't we just enjoy the information that they give to us?

Just for information, this message was sent by the used Chevrolet of the computer world. At 233Mhz it is slow and old, but it does everything I could want at the price I can afford. I cannot afford to buy a Mac, nor do I wish to as the benefits and cost effectiveness I get from owning a PC far outweight that of owning a Mac.

I'm happy with my PC, and I know how to use it!

Now moving on. Does anyone remember the Commodore Amiga versus Atari ST debate? lol!

Hugs,
Chas
------------------------------
From: NealWM@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

I am glad to see all this feverish discussion over a personal preference as to an OS be it Mac or Windows...although the MS windows platform was and is still a copy of the Mac environment (no matter what the courts have to say) which was the first graphically based computer environment. One thing though, with the new dual processer G4 the speed of the system is not the combination of both clock speeds (i.e. 2 750s will not be a 1500 ) but the new operating system will allow a greater multitasking ability thus the greater the potential of operating power...not speed. With the windows systems, as it is said, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
------------------------------
From: Fhfwa@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

It was rumored the our friend/enemy Bill Gates had a Mac in his multi million dollar home and that he told his programmers to copy the MAC GUI which they didn't.
------------------------------
From: "Tonka" tonka41@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

hmmmmmmmmm i can move it two steps..........copy and paste.......or cut and paste bish bosh its where i want it............

For the record, you describe about an eight-or-nine step process to MOVE a .gif file on a pc, and that doesn't even address OPENING the file. On a Mac, you simply double-click the file and it's open. PC is easier?? Uhhmm
------------------------------
From: "Tonka" tonka41@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Whoohoo i agree with everything you just said mate.

Tonks

ypvs wrote "I'm happy with my PC, and I know how to use it!"
------------------------------
From: Hal Whitmore halwhitmore@home.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

As a Mac user for about 18 months, and a former PC user since 1982 (18 years) I have the following observations:

My Mac is the most beautiful computer I've ever owned. The 20 something inch flat screen monitor is a work of art.

My Mac is by far the most expensive computer I've ever owned, at a cost of over $6800. (It was a gift for quitting smoking -- I'd never have bought it myself.)

I have to run virtual PC as a couple of my "must have" applications aren't available for the Mac. My G4 400 runs my windows programs somewhat faster than my P II 200 did.

The Mac crashes every bit as much as Windows did, and perhaps even more. I usually have to reboot a couple of times a day. (I don't have the new OS X yet).

I'm still not used to the keyboard differences and I don't "understand" how the Mac works nearly as well as I did my PC after 18 years (I was quite proficient with the command line workings of DOS), which makes me a bit uncomfortable, but it does work. I detest having to use Microsoft Word as a word processor vs Word Perfect, but then I'd been a Word Perfect user from version 1.0 when the company was Satellite Software.

My Mac is damned PURTY, but the PC is still in the guest room, lol

Hal
------------------------------
From: "Tonka" tonka41@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

I have too say that I love my PC, nope its not a Mac but it started out as a baby 350 mhz, 6 gig, 64 ram. but now its a 650 mhz, 30 gig 131 ram beauty. Check this link out for some more info on the subject. http://www.netmag.co.uk/ind_details.asp?id=22705&ch=IND04 This site is brilliant for technical info and the like, I'm a subscriber too there monthly magazine.

Tonka
------------------------------
From: SexyGreySenior@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

I just cant resist getting into this discussion, A Mac is a Rolls Royce? I dont think so, A Mac is better for graphics work, I dont think so,Either..I have built the 7 computers in my network from ground up.. and I can do ANYTHING a Mac can do in the same if not less time,with the same amount of quality and with less frustration..If the Mac is the greatest thing since peanut butter,then why is there so many PCs in use,Not because of price of the socalled super computer status, and as far as "super computer" My smallest machine is a 450 mg system running linux which is a damn site better OS than X10 or what ever it is Jobs has out now, and my main machines are both 1.8gig Machines,running win2000 pro which run circles around every mac I have come across..I can open gif's or any graphic format with a single click from my directory menu, so where is this 9 movement thing coming from, and lastly (And this is no flame,Boy's!!!) The Chevy will out run any Rolls on the road, Just happy with a PC,A real Mans Machine, (also like the chevy!!)

Dick
------------------------------ From: EArmstrong@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

You raise some very good points there, Chas.

I think it ultimately boils down to the fact that we love and defend what we've invested in, and by learning what we can do with the hardware brings us the most satisfaction.

And I think you're probably right in saying that when it comes to speed and reliability (and capability), they're pretty much on a par, and would have to be to coexist in a competitive market, although the market does for sure lean toward the PC. Also, it depends on what you have. That is, you can't compare a high-end PC with a low-end Mac, and vice versa.

There is only one other point I'd like to make. And that is, for under $100, a Mac user can buy a program that will run any Windows program and/or file. So availability of software really isn't all that much of a factor, but I pretty much agree with just about everything else you said.

Thanks for your input.

Ethan
------------------------------ From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

As I was saying Macs are good for what Macs are good at, an PCs are good for what PCs are good at. Both are equally easy to use, just different. I still haven't seen a Mac as a Web Server though - is it possible?

As for the process of moving files compared to opening them, on a PC running Win98 you can set it to either single click to open a file or double click depending on how you set it up. If you keep everything laying around on your desktop you can just single click from there. As far as moving files to different folders on a Mac, isn't there a several step process also? I think its just a matter of being use to something.

If you get a blank or blue screen with a PC and you choose to reboot with out the use of your drivers (as I believe you are doing when reboot your Mac with the shift key down) you can just hit F8 on the PC during the boot process and choose to boot with out drivers - very similar eh?

Yes we are all comfortable with what we know and sometimes get much too complacent. Its always good to experience all worlds and get a feel for what you like best for what you want to do. Personally I could never really afford a Mac (however I know that they have been coming down in price considerably), and I really like the ability I have to tweak with a PC (e.g. I bought a machine with a 700MHz AMD Duron, bridged the L1 bus, tweaked the BIOS, and am running it at 800MHz with 123MHz FSB (FRONT SIDE BUS - THE WAY MEMORY IS ACCESSED) speed to memory and an adjusted clock rate of 6.5 or Basically in Macanese - I tweaked it and made it faster - for cheep - cause that's the kinda guy I am). I wouldn't know where to begin to inexpensively upgrade a Mac (my little tweak cost me about $10. for a Automotive rear window defroster repair kit to bridge L1).

Anyway, thanks for your response - I hope you give PCs a chance before you condemn them.

Paul
------------------------------
From: "luvhog" luvhog@ameritech.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Macintosh or Wintel. The debate rages on forever. I'd give anything to have my Amiga back. Now that was a great machine. Never crashed.
------------------------------ From: EArmstrong@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Chas,
Just one other point I neglected to make. I already mentioned the PC software availability for the Mac (after the purchase of a slightly less than $100 program, that is). Now, with the development of USB, the availability of hardware is equally shared, since PCs and Macs now both use USB connections, and printers, scanners, etc. can be used by either. At least, as far as I'm aware, and I believe I'm right in saying that.

Still, as you say, there is not the distinction between the two that I originally opined. And I regret using the example of Chevy and Rolls. My sincere apologies for that. I was wrong in doing so.

Ethan
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Hmmmm, does anybody out there know what came first - the Unix windowing environment that started at A, Stopped at X, and is now X11rSomething or the Mac OS? I know I was using X11r4 on an Sun back when the Mac SE was introduced - that was the first Mac I ever experienced - and man, in comparison - it was realllllll slowwwwww (but was pretty cool for the $$$). I'm just wondering as to who really copied who? It seems to me that there was a lot of thought being done at colleges like Berkley about windowing systems prior to anyone ever really having a release of something that worked. However, I haven't been around long enough to know the answers. I remember Gates and his Windows v1.0 that was only used as a sales tool to get financial backers - I think that was around 1983/84 or something like that.

Paul
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

And yet another Gates rumor. Must be nice to have so much money and power that people want to make up rumors about you! I want that job !

Paul
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Yaaaaaa, I love it. Someone understands. They are both nice machines for what they do - aren't they? But it sounds like Macs are still way more expensive. I think that is why Apple gives them to schools. That way when the school kids graduate - they will need a Mac to survive. I bet if you bought a 400Mhz P3 it would be equally fast as your G4 400 (if not faster) at running Windows applications - however, that is not what it was designed to do.

I wonder why people always have to choose sides? Guess its just in the Genes .

Paul
------------------------------
From: "lj" wry@toast.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Thanks for bringing up the Amiga. I coveted mine which included a Newtek Video Toaster. I created many video segments for cable that ended up featured on shows such as CBS Evening News, The Donahue Show and CNN Showbiz Today. the Amiga had scripting function I have yet to see on any Mac or PC. My first computer was a Texas Instruments TI-99, for which I paid $100. I wrote graphic programs, in BASIC, which had infinite random functions. I showed them Wednesday nights on the projection screen at the oh so hot New York dance club Danceteria (where Madonna was discovered). The TI-99 was the only computer I have ever used that utilized the "color" transparent.

cu,
Lawrence
------------------------------
From: "Tonka" tonka41@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

I'm sorry Robert but i Don't have a MAC thank god :o) My machine is so much more versatile than a MAC HAHAHA ohhhhhhh dear me i'm gonna get some grief over this LOL

Tonks
------------------------------
From: George of Boston bostbill@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Dear Godwin,
Thanks for pointing out something rational, in contrast to all the bovine bloviation appearing recently on this subject.

George of Boston (Boston Bill)
http://bostbill.home.netcom.com
------------------------------
From: Brian Jennings battenkill@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Correct me if I'm wrong but Unix was initially develped at Bell labs. It was an open system meaning the source code was available and could be modified. A branch of unix was further developed at Berkely. So back in the 80s you would find both versions depending on the machine you worked on. Silicon Graphics developed another version call IRIX which after a few years came with a Graphic interface. The GUI for the SGI machines was X-windows. X standing for Xerox.

The Mac OS was inspired by the guys working at Xerox Parc. It was there that the mouse driving a graphic interface was developed. The Apple Lisa and Macintosh teams further developed the mouse/GUI for the Apple products. So it was not invented at Apple just applied. You can not discount the impact on the PC world. There were no plans for anything along the lines of windows at Microsoft until after the introduction of the Mac. Xerox had ceased further development of X-windows.

MS-DOS was the OS chosen by IBM for the PC. The error or inspiration that freed the PC was the fact that IBM licensed both the OS (DOS) and the CPU (Intel.) This lead to competition in the production of what were called "Clones." Machines powered by Intel CPUs running DOS based on a design developed by IBM.

The histories of all these guys are very intertwined. They all knew each other. The computing community was relatively small in the late 70s early 80s. The machines reflect the personalities of their makers. Steve Jobs the artist and Bill Gates the Nerd king of the world.

The Mac PC debate is fun to watch and participate in. There is a lot to be said about both computers. The reality is that the differences are truly minimal. If a Mac user were force onto a PC he might take a few weeks to be back in the exact same spot. Rendering benchmarks are interesting but mean little to people who don9t raytrace glass spheres.

I love my Mac but do like working on a command line. I like working with the SGIs and using unix because it took so damn long to learn and is so terribly unintuitive.

------------------------------
From: bishinik@uswest.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Web TV still rules My light bulb is better then yours, so there. And for those whose light is off and for those in California it is a joke. Dam Computer queens.

Joe
------------------------------

From: jerry trout trout54@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Guys,
You are getting a little out of hand here. I use a Mac at home and a PC at work. With a little Gingko Biloba and manual dexterity I am able to figure out the differences between the two systems. I like both and have problems with both. Let's not forget our common humanity and the differences in the tools we use to enhance that!

Love Ya, Jerry
------------------------------
From: "Tonka" tonka41@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

whoohoo this is all getting too techy for me.............I can feel my hair stand up as it all goes over my head :o)

Tonka
------------------------------
From: ypvs@freeuk.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Someone was asking about who was it that came up with a windows type operating system first.

I used to have a machine that not only had an excellent windows system, but was also one of the first machines to multi task properly AND it came out in 1985.

I don't know if it was the first Windows system, but the Commodore Amiga was years ahead of it's time when it was launched. Such a shame that it was never developed later on as it could have been a world beater.

Hugs,
Chas
------------------------------
From: Peter older_admirer@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

My first computer was a Mac (PowerMac 7100, 66MHz, 16M RAM), back in 1994. What I remember about it was that it was extremely fast for that time, and never had issues. I believe it crashed on me one or two times during the 5 years I had it. Oh, an issue I always had with it was that it was not very compatible with Windows---but we all know that. Formatting would change a lot when made in one system and read on the other. Also, sometimes I couldn't find much software for it, but I had what I needed most: Excel, and Claris.

Last year I bought a Dell, of a model rated tops by a bunch of consumer's guides, etc. I mainly bought a PC because the Macs are way too expensive, and I have noticed that some people have difficulty opening or viewing files made on Windows. I want to make sure I have the ability to view anything...after all, the world is dominated by Windows.

While adjusting to using Windows was easy (after all, Microsoft has done a nice job in making Windows as similar to Mac OS as possible, because they know it is the best), what I have been having difficulties with is accepting that it is normal for PC's and for Windows to crash WAAAAAAAAAAY more often that my good old Mac. I feel that Windows is trying to have a good system, but it is not as robust as Mac OS. While a PC is like a Ford or a Chevy (mass production, affordable and gets you from point A to point B), a Mac is like a Lexus (smooooth ride, top quality, reliability, but not every one can afford).

Pete
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Thank you for your insight. I really appreciate the feed back. Understand that in the late 70s early 80s I was still just another Hippy and didn't really follow much of anything closely (other than the difference between Purple Microdot, Sugar Cube, and Masculine!). I think I remember something about Intel inventing this chip they were going to use to power - a wrist watch - and then Gates found it could crunch numbers or something. But I think I preferred the guidance of Timothy Leary! Wow, seems like just yesterday.

Paul
------------------------------
From: Eric Cooks ecooks2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

It is not a matter as to which is better than the other. The questions remains whether either one of them meets your requirements as an end user. Some are sophisticated computer geeks but some are just plain and simple end-users with no complex requirements as to which is better or not.

Comparison of which is faster depends on many factors, not only on the kinds of machine, applications that it runs on, data requirements etc. If you one to compare peanuts to oranges, you can do that without reaching a conclusion.

Mac can run Windows' applications but it is slow. On the other hand, Windows cannot run Mac applications. Is that a comparison of which is better, I don't think so? The PCs belong to Microsoft and they are trying to dominate the hand-held device and the internet? Why don't someone compare who is a better businessman? Bill Gates or Steve Job? PCs were IBM world, but Bill Gates decimated them with his MS operating system......

Arguments on either pros and cons on PCs and Macs are endless ......

I have used both Windows and Macs .......

Amen!
------------------------------
From: "Heimy Gorovitz" pauln1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Wow, two machines - great comparison! I wonder why my sisters Mac always crashed while surfing the web? Must have been the Chevy Mac model!

Thanks for the input.

Warm regards,
Paul

BTW: Since the Mac was so great, why did you get rid of it? It sounded like it did everything you wanted it to do.
------------------------------
From: brian jennings battenkill@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Sorry If I bored you guys. I still find the history of computers or lack thereof interesting.
------------------------------
From: "Pewit" pewit@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

It's a Mac user rumour as Bill Gates only finished his multi-million dollar his home in the last 5 years and Windows 1.0 came out a long long time ago.

The Mac interface itself was "copied" from work that Steve Jobs saw at Xerox Parc.

MS included some of the functions of the Mac in the original version of Windows but at the time the Mac was not the only GUI in existence - anyone else remember GEM?

Regards
Pewit
Editor of The Gray Gay Guide
The online guide to places for mature gay men and their admirers worldwide
------------------------------
From: "[SGMS]" sgms@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

From: "Pewit":anyone else remember GEM?

Hmm... Should have remembered it because I used it at work about 10 or 12 years ago! It's a shame Digital Research got eaten up by Novell later on, their DR-DOS was pretty good.

GEM is also the environment which inspired Jack Tramiel's operating system for the Atari ST family of machines.

GRS
------------------------------
From: "[SGMS]" sgms@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

ypvs@freeuk.com wrote: I don't know if it was the first Windows system, but the Commodore Amiga was years ahead of it's time when it was launched.

Above all, CBM didn't have the commercial muscle-power of Microsux.

There's another multitasking grahic environment for PC's that nobody has mentioned yet: Geoworks. It could do anything Windows 3.1, its direct competitor, could do on half the machine (Geoworks would run on an 8086 with 640K of RAM), and it already used long filenames!

But what do small companies do when they're in direct competition with Microsux, and when they're too small for Microsux to be interested in them? They become history. So, there we are, I have a few pieces of history in my diskette boxes ;o)

GRS
------------------------------
From: "John Sully" voyagerguy@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

I hope this doesn't continue the topic to much further, but isn't IBM's OS2 in this fray somewhere? I mean, I have been using computers for years, and I distinctly remember most people's first impression of Windows was that it looked too much like OS2. Except for resolution. And it crashed more. And when it did, it didn't give you information like OS2. Regardless of who has the best technology ( I won't enter the MAC/PC debate), it just goes to show you the best technology does NOT always win. I still covet my first betamax deck. And much content is still professionally distributed on Beta tape in that format. Let's see how far this goes.
------------------------------
From: Peter older_admirer@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard shortcut/Mac vs. PC

Paul,
I bought a PC because I use a PC at work, and many times I bring work home. Having a Mac, I would run the risk of wasting my time formatting, etc. a report at home, just to lose it when opening the document at work.

Like I said, another reason I did not get a Mac was because they are expensive. Also, I like the flexibility of the PC to expand whatever you want on them, and their "universality". Most of the world has Windows. having a Mac is like going to Europe with your electric items: you can use them, but you need an adaptor. Windows is like Visa or Mastercard: you don't even think about it, they're just accepted about anywhere where credit cards are accepted. Pretty universal.

My top-notch PC at home crashes more frequently than my Mac crashed in its entire existance. I CANNOT spend one single week when I do not reboot my computer or I get an error messsage for something. However, my PC at work is A LOT more stable. It crashes, but maybe once every other month or so. But I use the one at home for the internet a lot, and the one at work only for Office applications. Besides, the one at work gets professional maintenance on a scheduled basis.

Overall I like having a PC better bacause I simply go to the store and don't worry if this or that will work on it. With my Mac, I had to make sure that it specifically said: "For Mac". I feel more freedom owning a PC than a Mac. Also, I guess because Microsoft knows how unstable Windows is, they have done a nice job in making your documents very "recoverable" when Windows crashes, so for the most part the computer crashing creates an inconvenience but does not kill me.

Too bad your sister's Mac is crashing on the net. Maybe she has a bad Mac, or maybe Macs are not good at handling the internet. I am not really sure why that happens. I never had any problems with mine.

I think some one said before, you are going to defend whatever you are familiar with, or whatever property you own. I have had both, not at the same time though. My experience: Macintosh = high quality and high price with limitations in certain areas, Windows = affordability and convenience at average quality. Your pick.
We all run into choices like this all the time, and that is why it is important to know and understand the end use and your needs before you buy something. I am happy I opted for a PC for the application I use it for.

By the way, I do not have a Rolls Royce or a Lexus. I have a small, gas efficient, easy to park and affordabel Saturn, and I am happy with it. Choices...

Pete
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